United States in Bible Prophecy: Biblical Possibil

[PrisonerOfHope]

United States in Bible Prophecy: Biblical Possibilities

By Dr. David R. Reagan

Where is the United States in Bible prophecy? It is a question I am asked wherever I go. It is only natural that we should wonder. Since the United States is not mentioned specifically by name in Bible prophecy, people have resorted to their imaginations to find our nation in the Scriptures.


A "tall and smooth people"?

Some have pointed to Isaiah 18 which speaks of a people "tall and smooth" who are "feared far and wide." The passage further states that this is a "powerful nation whose land the rivers divide." The chapter ends by stating that the people of this nation will bring "a gift of homage" to the Lord when He returns to reign from Mt. Zion.

Because these verses speak of a powerful nation whose land is divided by a great river, some have jumped to the conclusion that the nation is the United States since it is divided by the Mississippi River.

But the opening verses of this chapter indicate it is speaking of "Cush," the ancient name of Ethiopia. At the time Isaiah wrote this passage, Ethiopia was a part of the Egyptian empire and the river referred to is undoubtedly the Nile.


A "village" of Tarshish?

Probably one of the most popular passages where people claim to have found the U.S. is in Ezekiel 38 where the prophet describes an invasion of Israel that will be launched in the end times by a nation "from the remote parts of the north." The descriptive verses about the northern power make it clear that this nation is Russia. What is not so clear is where the U.S. fits into this invasion.

Those who find us in the passage point to Ezekiel 38:13 which says that "the merchants of Tarshish and all its villages" (or "young lions" depending on translation) will speak out against the invasion. The argument is that Tarshish is Britain and the "villages" or "young lions" are the English speaking nations like the U.S. and Australia that were founded by British immigrants.

To say the least, this is a highly imaginative interpretation. Its validity is seriously questioned by the fact that no one knows for certain the true identity of "Tarshish." Furthermore, recent archaeological developments indicate that Tarshish was most likely Spain, not Britain.


A "great eagle"?

Another favorite passage for applied imagination is Revelation 12:13-17. These verses state that in the middle of the Tribulation God will provide a means of escape for the Jewish remnant in Israel. They will be carried into the wilderness to a hiding place on the "wings of a great eagle."

Some people have seized on this imagery to teach that the U.S., whose national symbol is the eagle, will supply the end time air lift that will save the Jewish remnant.

But the Bible is its own best interpreter. And when you look up the phrase, "wings of an eagle," you will find that it is the same one that God used in Exodus 19:4 to describe how He brought the Israelites out of Egypt. God is the eagle, not the United States (see Deuteronomy 32:11).


"Babylon the great?"

This brings us to the final and most widely used passage for identifying the U.S. in Bible prophecy. It is Revelation 18 where the destruction of "Babylon the great" is described.

There is no doubt that the United States shares many similarities with the corrupt commercial empire described in this chapter. But the U.S. is not a fulfillment of Revelation 18. That chapter is describing the last Gentile world empire that will dominate the earth at the time of the Lord's Second Coming. It is the empire of the Antichrist.


A Conclusion

So, where is the United States in Bible prophecy? The answer is that we are not mentioned directly and specifically. We are covered by general prophecies that relate to all nations, but beyond that, our end time destiny must be a matter of speculation.

General prophecies that apply to the U.S. include those that say all nations will be judged (Isaiah 34:2-3) and all nations will cease to exist except the nation of Israel (Jeremiah 30:11 and 46:28).


I do have a speculation as to why the U.S. is not mentioned in end time prophecy, though, which I'll post in the second half of this study into the United States in Bible prophecy.

(Some of the comments are interesting - one guy thinks "at least 77% of Americans will be raptured. 150 years ago, maybe...I doubt even 7.7% of Americans these days are genuine born again Christians.)

www.lamblion.us/2012/04/united-states-in-bible-prophecy.html

[wateredseeds]

I tend to lean towards Patrick Heron's idea. That America is probably Babylon the great....which is a mystery harlot. New York City fits the description overwhelmingly the best. Especially because it is the U.N. headquarters and the "kings of the earth" commit adultery and abominations there.

[shann0]

Rome and the Vatican is the Harlot...

[baydoll]

I love Patrick Heron but I disagree with him on this. I agree with Shann0. As far as I know, New York City never murdered saints. But Rome sure did.



I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement. (Rev.17:6).

[wateredseeds]

Well that's one of the reasons why i said i "lean" that way. I don't think it's concrete in any way. I would say though that the characterization in Revelation can be seen as futuristic. While there are parallels that draw back and forth, most of revelation is still future, and so i would say that the passage can be fulfilled during the tribulation(and likely will be).

I used to overwhelmingly think that the connection would be between the vatican and the revived roman empire. I'm just not sure because of the scriptural references in the old testament. They really seem to pick on New York....but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. Heron identified i think 5 or 6 possibilities. The one thing i do say for sure is that it will not be a literally rebuilt babylon. Otherwise it wouldn't be a mystery....and i also think that we've done a good job identifying that the empire of the people is roman in heritage. That is also a problem of course with new york being mystery babylon. Even though it fits the bill....there is a great argument for an italian/vatican power.

[PrisonerOfHope]

I totally agree...there's no question in my mind that Rome (the Vatican) is the Whore of Babylon...the Bible has them right down to the red and purple dresses their clergy wear, and the richly embellished chalices.

[wateredseeds]

I just re-read the chapter in Heron's book Return of the AC. I kind of agree with him more. I think some of the specific references just cause the vatican to not fit the bill. Mystery Babylon is a city. She is called a city. While the vatican is a city(and a country)......she doesn't trade with the entire world. She isn't a major trading port. She doesn't have large sky scrapers(towers that would fall). The leaders of the earth don't meet at the vatican. The vatican has a presence in all the world...but the world does not have a presence at the vatican.

I think there is more in common for the vatican to have to do with the false prophet than mystery babylon.

[PrisonerOfHope]

Here's part 2:

United States in Bible Prophecy: Final Fate

Dr. David R. ReaganPDFBy Dr. David R. Reagan

In the first half of this study into the United States in Bible prophecy, I looked into the possible biblical references to our nation's involvement and concluded we are not specifically addressed. In this second half, I'll speculate as to why most likely the country is absent.


A Speculation

I personally believe that the reason the U.S. is not mentioned in end time prophecy is because we will suddenly cease to be a world power and will therefore play no significant role in end time events.

The destruction of American power is most likely to occur in two stages. The first could be an economic catastrophe that will result from our out of control debt situation. Our god is the dollar, and the Lord is going to destroy that god when the weight of our debt collapses our economy.

The second stage could occur when Russia launches its invasion of Israel (prophesied in Ezekiel 38 and 39). I believe it is very likely that they will launch a preemptive nuclear attack against our nation, since we are the only country in the world that might possibly come to Israel's defense. This attack may be hinted at in Ezekiel 39:6 where it says that fire will fall on "those who inhabit the coastlands in safety."

The Russian attack will probably come from submarines deployed off our East and West coasts. Each Russian sub carries more fire power than all the bombs dropped in World War II. Such an attack would give us only seven minutes warning, not even enough time to launch a counter attack.

With the U.S. immobilized, the Russians will then attack Israel and, according to Ezekiel, their army will be wiped out supernaturally by God on the hills of Israel (Ezekiel 39:1-4). The greatest power vacuum in the history of mankind will be created almost overnight. The world will be gripped by panic.

Into that vacuum will step a dynamic, charismatic European political personality who will be energized by Satan. He will begin to rally the world to his support through his brilliant proposals for world peace. The world will be mesmerized by him (Revelation 13:8).


An Objection

Some argue that since the collapse of the Soviet government, Russia is now too weak to launch any attack against Israel or the United States. But the economy of Russia has rebounded due to the nation's vast oil reserves, and its military power is intact, including thousands of nuclear warheads!

In fact, Russia is far more dangerous to the world today than before the Soviet collapse. The increased danger is rooted in the instability of the government.

There is no hope for democracy in Russia because the societal values that are essential for the working of a democratic system do not exist. Nor is there any historical experience with democracy. Before the Commissars were the Czars.

As I predicted from the outset, the experiment with democracy did not last long. Vladimir Putin has created a new tyranny that is obsessed with territorial expansion. Putin will most likely resort to one of the oldest techniques of government — namely, stirring up trouble abroad to divert people's attention away from their domestic problems. That foreign trouble will ultimately be the invasion of Israel.


The Parallel of Habakkuk

I admit that I do not like this speculative scenario. But it seems the most likely chain of events to me. When it first occurred to me, I was particularly repelled by the idea of God using Russia to judge our nation. I asked, "How can a holy God punish those who are evil with those who are more evil?"

My quest for an answer to that question led me to the book of Habakkuk. I discovered that Habakkuk asked God the same question when God revealed to him that Judah would be judged by an invasion of the Chaldeans.

God never answered Habakkuk's question. He just called on Habakkuk to proceed in faith, believing that God knew best (Habakkuk 2:4). After a difficult spiritual struggle, Habakkuk stepped out in faith and said, "Lord, even if the Chaldeans completely destroy us, I will continue to exalt Your name" (Habakkuk 3:17-19).

The Chaldeans came. They destroyed the nation of Judah and the Temple of God. But where are the Chaldeans today? In the dust bin of history. Where are the Jews? Regathered to their land.

The point is that God has the wisdom and power to orchestrate the evil of Man to the triumph of His holy will in history. It is not for us to question His ways. Rather, it is for us to trust Him.


A Sobering Conclusion

But there is another point to consider. Are we really more righteous than the Russians? I think not.

In fact, I believe we are far more dangerous to the world spiritually than the Russians have ever been, for we are the world's moral polluter through the export of our sleazy television programs, our filthy movies, our satanic music, and our degrading pornography.

We are a people who have turned our back on God. The day of judgment for us will be far more severe than for the Russians, for "to those to whom much is given, much is expected" (Luke 12:48).


Another Possibility

There is another possible fate for the United States. If the Rapture were to occur today, we would be devastated because our nation contains more born again Christians than any other nation in the world — more than all of Western Europe combined. Further, we have many born again Christians in high positions of commerce and government. The Rapture would reduce our nation to chaos, removing us from the international scene as the world's dominant power.

We can hope and pray that this will be the destiny of our nation, because if it is not, we are headed toward outright destruction due to our rebellion against a gracious God who has blessed us more than any other nation that has ever existed.

www.lamblion.us/2012/04/united-states-in-bible-prophecy-final.html

[shann0]

No one has killed and tortured more saints than Rome, and even if it were some future prophecy, any other would have a lot of killing to do to catch up with Rome... No, for sure, Rome is the whore.

[wateredseeds]

Shanno,

Can you quantitate the amount of people killed by the catholic church? Has it been more than a billion? Suppose it is 100 million.....that's nothing compared to the amount of deaths the AC will oversee during the tribulation. That's nothing compared to the martyrdom and the atrocity and assault on the saints of the most high God that will occur during the tribulation.

Do i see parallels? Yes. But you can't base the assumption on the amount of deaths alone...because more people will die during the tribulation than have lived in the entire history of the earth since Adam. Of course there is a lot of other reasons to focus on rome. I just don't see rome being the mystery babylon. She doesn't meet the OTHER guidelines.

She is not a major port city, and the leaders of the earth don't meet there. There's a lot of other stuff too. I think the biggest argument AGAINST it being rome, is that that has been the common protestant position for hundreds of years. I seriously doubt that they really had mystery babylon figured out immediately after the reformation started. It's a mystery for a reason. Wouldn't be much of a mystery if it was rome. I also agree with Heron in that the book of Enoch holds the key to this mystery.

That being said....rome isn't off of the list. There is still enough in common to say that it is a possibility, and a strong one. The word symbolism makes you think of Rome first.

[shann0]

Well from all my studies into Babylonian mystery religions of which we can all agree the RCC is the biggest and most organized... their efforts at ecumenism... their control over the world leaders and nations via the Jesuits I really dont see anyone else fitting the bill. I have spent considerable time exposing these connections in my facebook group THE JESUITS SONS OF DECEPTION. You should check it out if you arent already a member. Im currently taking a hiatus from fb but there are a few other admins who would be happy to add you. Blessings to you

[wateredseeds]

Shanno,

See that's the problem though. You're making an assumption based on things that HAVE happened already, rather than the characteristics of what the word says WILL happen. While I agree that the RCC will play a crucial role in the end times, and even in uniting the world into a one world faith.....MYSTERY BABYLON is a city, and not a religion itself. Mystery Babylon has specific characteristics that are not met by rome or vatican city.

Revelation 17:16-18
16And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

17For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

18And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

The kings of the earth HATE THE WHORE and they make her DESOLATE AND BURN HER WITH FIRE! Then in verse 18. The woman IS that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

There is only one city in the entire world that can claim that title right now...and that is New York. Does it mean New York is that city? No...because that wouldn't take into account what can happen prophetically yet. It is not a religion though...it is a city.

If you want to see the RCC, i think we see the RCC more in the false prophet than in Mystery Babylon. If you study every single characteristic of mystery babylon.....rome doesn't even come close. The assumption is of course based on the imagery of scarlet and a golden cup and the 7 MOUNTAINS. Because rome is called the city of seven hills....many prophecy scholars have fallen into a trap with that phrase. Why in the world would it be a mystery to John. Why not simply call it rome? It is a mystery because the city itself was unrecognizable to John. It has great towers(which excludes vatican city). There is a lot of stuff there. Maybe we can start a new thread and discuss it in detail. I too thought for the longest time that it would be rome.

[wateredseeds]

"And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues."-Revelation 17:15

Hmmmm....only place in the world that is a melting pot of culture and languages is America.

[PrisonerOfHope]

Don't forget, Rome was often referred to as "Mystery Babylon" in correspondence during the early church years for fear of retribution for speaking against the Roman government.

[shann0]

Wateredseeds... Sorry I disagree about Rome ie the Vatican not ruling over the nations and leaders of the earth. In fact they do so... they have financial resources and political control... all the kings of the earth bow and kiss the popes ring.. most identify their religion as Catholicism. The Vatican is its own city/state... there are only two other places that claim such a title... the district of Columbia and London.

[baydoll]

Apr 18, 2012 2:16:50 GMT -5 PrisonerOfHope said:

Don't forget, Rome was often referred to as "Mystery Babylon" in correspondence during the early church years for fear of retribution for speaking against the Roman government.

Also, Peter made mentioned of it here:

"She who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you her greetings, and so does my son Mark. " (1 Peter 5:13)

Many think Peter was using Babylon as a code name for Rome.

[baydoll]

This is turning out to be quite an interesting thread!

Wateredseeds, if Mystery Babylon is New York, then who is the Harlot?

[shann0]

I don't agree with everything PPSimmons says, he actually believes that we are already seeing the 6th trumpet right now... I totally disagree with his assessment about that but about the Whore, we are in agreement...




Links from the video description...
Revelation 17:5(KJV) 5And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.The Catholic religion is composed of traditions which are NOT based upon the Word of God. Matthew 23:9 warns us not to reverence any man as "Father." Yet, this is exactly what the Catholic religion practices. 1st Timothy 4:1-3 warns us about the Catholic religion... "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth." -1st Timothy 4:1-3

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It is very simple to be saved. Dear Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner, deserving of Hell. Please forgive me of my sins and take me to Heaven when I die. I now believe upon You alone, apart from all self-righteous works and religion, as my personal Savior. Thank you. Amen.

Just take God at His word and claim His salvation by faith. Believe, and you will be saved. No church, no lodge, no good works can save you. Remember, God does the saving. All of it!

God's simple plan of salvation is: You are a sinner. Therefore, unless you believe on Jesus Who died in your place, you will spend eternity in Hell. If you believe on Him as your crucified, buried, and risen Savior, you receive forgiveness for all of your sins and His gift of eternal salvation by faith.

Christ died for your sins. You are a sinner by nature and by choice. Jesus took your sins and charged them to His own record. He went to the cross and paid the penalty for your sins. He says if you're willing to receive Him in faith; He will transfer His payment to your debt, and His righteousness to your sins. He will impute to you His goodness, and impute to His own record your sin; if you in faith will trust Him as your Savior.

Further Info on Salvation at this Link: www.jesus-is-savior.com/how_to_be_saved.html

[PrisonerOfHope]

And let's not overlook the fact that New York City is TOTALLY FLAT....it's not on even one hill, much less seven hills.

more people will die during the tribulation than have lived in the entire history of the earth since Adam.

Well, that's not true, according to numerous Bible scholars:

How many people died in the flood of Noah's day?

Answer:

This depends very much on a number of variables which need to be clarified in order to understand the conclusion reached. It must also be remembered that it never was the intention of any Biblical author to satisfy the modern thirst for detailed information and statistics. However, using various assumptions an answer can be arrived at which must be seen for what it is - our best estimate based on available information. Others may come up with different estimates based on other assumptions. The assumptions used to come up with the figure below all take the Bible to be an accurate record of the events it describes - although of course not at all directly addressing the question we here have in hand.

The first of these is the acceptance that the flood was worldwide. This is made clear by the Biblical record repeatedly.

Secondly is the time frame from creation to the flood. A number of figures are available on this - even people like Newton and Keppler did their calculations and came up with similar time periods. The best known calculation is of course Ussher's time of 1656 years.

Thirdly, the rate of reproduction - using conservative figures of population growth based on the information provided in the Biblical record, then the figure arrived at would be around 7 Billion people.


Source: Henry M. Morris The Genesis Record: Baker, Grand Rapids,1976. p 143-144.

[PrisonerOfHope]

Population of the PreFlood World

by Tom Pickett

Email: [e-mail]

Introduction

Very little is known about the people who lived before the Great Flood. Genesis chapters 2 through 7 provide a synopsis of that age. Ancient Jewish writings provide more possible detail. However, no archaeological discoveries have been made which would reveal additional information about this lost society. Therefore, scripture is all we have to rely on. Of the many issues concerning the flood, a common question that has often been asked is: "What was the world population when the flood occurred?" Most people have been taught that the population might have been in the tens of millions or perhaps in the hundreds of millions. Using an electronic spreadsheet, an analysis was made of the effects of population size using the numerical values provided in the book of Genesis for age of childbirth, number of children per family and life-spans.

This study is based upon a time span of 1656 years, beginning with the creation of Adam and extending to the time the Great Flood occurred. Although arguments can be made against this amount of time, it is widely accepted among Bible scholars. When you add up the genealogies in the book of Genesis you get 1656 years. However, it should be noted that other ancient Jewish writings such as the Septuagint indicate a longer time period . (1)

The book of Genesis identifies the life-spans of the antediluvians as approximately 900 years (Masoretic Text). This is obviously different from the life-spans of today. According to Scripture, the ages at which the antediluvians had children range from 65 to over 100 years of age. Also, their families would most likely be much larger than today's. With 900 year life-spans, it would seem that the effects of disease on their society would be much different than ours today. These variations would seem to change the traditional generation lengths and family sizes used in today's population growth calculations.

Description of Calculations

Based on the numerical values in Genesis, the life-spans, generation lengths, and childbearing ages were analyzed using an electronic spreadsheet called Mathcad 7 (2). The results were plotted and range of probable values determined, representing the world population at the time the flood occurred. Figure 1 shows a chart of the antediluvian life-spans, childbirth ages, and number of minimum children per family. The chart covers from the creation of Adam out to 1656 years where the flood is believed to have occurred. All information contained in the chart was taken from the Book of Genesis.

The population was calculated using the formula given below. This formula was published by Henry Morris (3) and calculates the population of the world at the time of the Flood. P(n) is the population after n generations which begins with one man and one woman. The number of generations is represented by n. A value for n can be obtained by dividing the total time period by the number of years per generation.

The number of generations that are alive when P(n) is evaluated is represented by x. For example, if x equals 2, the generations that are alive are generations n and n-1. The value of c represents half the number of children in the family. If each family has only two children c would equal 1 and the population growth rate would be zero.

The calculations were made using Mathcad 7 and the resulting data points are plotted on graphs with diamonds indicating each data point. Both x and y scales are logarithmic. The number of children per family are varied from 10 to 3. Several "runs" are made using different values for n. The child bearing ages are obtained by dividing 1656 by n. The result is used to establish the average age for childbirth and therefore, the length of each generation. The population is evaluated in five groups, consisting of the following:

1. Sixteen generations (n=16), each generation is 103.5 years. The life-spans are 900 years (x=9). The calculations begin with 10 children per family and are minimized to 3 children per family.

2. Eighteen generations (n=18), each generation is 92 years. The life-spans are 900 years (x=9). The calculations begin with 10 children per family and are minimized to 3 children per family.

3. Twenty generations (n=20), each generation is 82.8 years. The life-spans are 900 years (x=9). The calculations begin with 10 children per family and are minimized to 3 children per family.

4. Twenty-two generations (n=22), each generation is 75.3 years. The life-spans are 900 years (x=9). The calculations begin with 10 children per family and are minimized to 3 children per family.

Additional data points were generated, this time assuming that the population may have been between 1 to 40 billion. The same life-spans were used as in the previous (900 years). The generation lengths are also the same (16 to 22). The range of children per family is varied from 8.6 to 4.8. These values appear to be more in line with what is mentioned in scripture. (Although, scripture isn't clear as to what all cases may have been.)

Conclusions

Although it is difficult to obtain an actual value of world population at the time of the flood, 5 to17 billion people would appear to be reasonable populations, with an average of around 10 billion. The best ages for childbirth would be 80.8 to 92 years with 6 to 7 children per family. This would be 20 to 18 generations produced from Adam to the Flood in 1656. The Book of Genesis indicates (Chapter 5) that each family had at least 5 children. Adam and Eve had a total of 7 (including Abel). However, Noah apparently had only 3 children. (It is possible that he could have had sons and daughters that aren't recorded and who weren't on the ark.)

Genesis Chapter 5 states that each person had "sons and daughters" in addition to the son whose chronology is given. Since a plural is used to describe the number of sons and daughters, a minimum of two sons and two daughters are assumed. Therefore, a reasonable value would appear to be a range of 5 to 8 children per family. As previously stated, Adam and Eve had seven children. Using 5 to 8 children per family, the population falls with in a range of ~2 billion to 11.5 billion (over the range of 16 to 22 generations). (Refer to last four tables at end of section.) It is interesting that today's population of approximately 6 billion fall within this category.

The Bible indicates that the mean life span was 900 years before the Flood. However, the calculations indicate that this value has little effect on the total population size. This appears to be due to the small number of generations used (n) and large values of c. If longer generations were used and fewer children born per family, I would expect x to be a greater factor. Therefore, the number of children per family (during each generation) has a far greater effect on the population. I believe the longer life-span had more to do with ones impact on society such as accumulation of knowledge. (Imagine Edison or Einstein living 900 years!)

A reasonable value for the antediluvian childbearing age appears to be approximately 90 years. Genesis uses a range of 65 to 500 years, for the first born in the families that are listed. Noah is the only one mentioned who waited 500 years before starting his family. We are not told why. Therefore, Noah is an exception to the standard. (As mentioned above, Noah could have had other sons and daughters who are not recorded.) The other oldest were Methuselah (187 years), Lamech (182 years) and Jared (162 years). The rest began their families at between 65 and 105 years of age (see time-line chart). Adam is listed as being 130 when Seth was born. We don't know his age at the time Cain and Abel were born. The age of the antediluvians when they started their families is rather strange in contrast to today. These ages appear to indicate that for some unknown reason, they may have been incapable of reproduction until around the age of 65 years.

As previously mentioned, other ancient documents as well as others such as Barry Setterfield have suggested a time span of 2256 years between creation and the Flood. If this were true, then it would effect the population results, driving the population far higher. In this case, it would mean the population was much higher or the family sizes were lower than scripture indicates.

If the population reached over a billion, there would tend to be some logistical problems in feeding and caring for the population (clothing, housing, jobs, etc). This indicates that they would have required a higher level of technology than what we currently give them credit for. Had their population reached over 10 billion, they would have required similar technology as we have today (rail, refrigerated shipping, sophisticated farming methods, fast and reliable communication, etc).







References:

1. Henry M. Morris, The Genesis Record, Baker Book House, 1976, p. 154

2. Mathcad 7 is a product of Math Soft Inc. Cambridge MA.

3.. Henry M. Morris, The Biblical Basis for Modern Science, Baker Book House, 1984, p.417. Excerpt.

See also World Population Since Creation, also on this web site.

ldolphin.org/pickett.html

[wateredseeds]

POH,

You said not to forget that it is flat. Well, that's kind of the problem isn't it. People assume that the description in the bible is about a physical characteristic, but it is not.

9And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

10And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

11And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

Hmmm....seems pretty clear that the 7 mountains are referring to 7 kings. These 7 kings are fallen angels(which i think we can prove from Daniel).

18And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

The woman, which is called a harlot is a CITY. So there isn't a question about whether it is talking about a religion or not. It is identified as a city.

[wateredseeds]

Good discussion though.

[shann0]

Rome sits on seven hills... it fits.

[wateredseeds]

^^^^ Yeah, that's what i was saying though. People think about it as a physical description but it isn't a physical description. The seven mountains are 7 kings which are fallen angels.

Though i have always viewed it that way until about a year ago.

[shann0]

But wateredseeds, if we are to adhere to the reading of the text, it does not actually say the mountains are kings, it says:

9And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

10And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

Just because there are seven mountains, and there are seven kings does not necessarily mean that the mountains are the kings. But even if they were, who's to say that there is not some hierarchical structure within the ranks of the RCC that conforms to the 7 heads/ kings/ mountains theory.