That pic is ADORABLE!!! Glad to see your puppy is doing well too! I know you had a problem with her being sick a while ago. Glad she's feeling better.
Thanks for posting that!
Philippians 3:20-21 “But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.”
Philippians 3:20-21 “But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.”
Post by wateredseeds on Oct 21, 2012 14:04:10 GMT -5
baydoll,
I grew up baptist, but attend an assembly of God church. It is not "ideal" to me...because AG churches are trinitarian...and i am obviously not. I do believe in the gifts of the spirit, but endorse a more conservative approach to them than most pentecostals. The only churches that are openly not trinitarian in my area are United Pentecostal...and they frustrate the grace of God(in addition to other theological issues)...so i can't go there.
I would say largely that there isn't a church out there that is really all that close to me theologically. I'm dispensational, literal, conservative, pentecostal, truth teller.....etc. I get very frustrated with sermons because i almost never agree with their premise. The churches i tend to like the sermons the best are dispensational baptist....not reformed. However, they are almost all cessationist...and not only don't practice the gifts...but believe they have ceased altogether. I could deal with a church not practicing the gifts...but do say they don't exist anymore is too much for me.
I've thought about starting a church, but without the money it would be hard. Especially considering most of the people that like to listen to me preach and speak....still would have problems with my fundemental theology. I tend to strike people very well about 80% of the time...and the rest of the time frustrate them so much.
I would say my biggest issue is my willingness to change theology based off the word of God. Sometimes God reveals grandiose differences between my theology and the bible...and once i've confirmed my shift, i'm very easy about it. Not many people are willing to take an open approach to the bible like that though.
Post by wateredseeds on Oct 21, 2012 14:06:54 GMT -5
I've thought about the christian missionary alliance....which is much more in line with me on some things. A little bit more open approach....that doesn't emphasize a particular viewpoint as much as the goodness of the word. I don't know...it's frustrating. Awhile back i was considering changing churches because my pastor seemed to be pushing lordship salvation. He has since backed off from that rhetoric...but it is still a concern for me.
The problem is that NOWHERE in scripture is God actually revealed as 3 persons.
Then why does John 8:28 state the following, wateredseeds?
God the Son and God the Father:
'Then Jesus said to them, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things. "
and the Holy Spirit, :
"And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever-- " (John 14:16)
One final question:
IF God (the Son, the Father and the Holy Spirit) is NOT a Person, then why are masculine pronouns used to describe them?
For instance, regarding the Holy Spirit:
John 14:26 : "for He will teach you all things".
Romans 8:26 : "The Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. "
Romans 8:16 : "The Spirit Himself bears witness.... that we are children of God"
Philippians 3:20-21 “But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.”
The article is flat out wrong. The Father only has one image...and that is Jesus. Will we be able to see Jesus? Yes. Does the holy spirit also have a throne? No. The throne Jesus will be on...is the throne of the Father. They are not separate images. That leads to idolatry. It leads to worshipping a false image of God.
Rev. 5:6-7 says :
"And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth. Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.:
Answer me this, David: WHO is the Lamb? And WHO is the One seated on the throne?
And if what you say is true that the Father only has ONE IMAGE and this is of JESUS, then why is it that there are two distinct and separate persons IN THAT PASSAGE?
One is COMING (The Lamb) upon the throne that has Someone else ALREADY SEATED there. The Lamb clearly hands a scroll TO WHOMEVER IS SITTING THERE. That Someone clearly TAKES THE SCROLL from the Lamb. One is GIVING while the other TAKES.
So tell me David, who is the Lamb and who is the one on the throne in whom the Lamb is handing the scroll TO?
So again.
How can it be ONE SINGLE BEING ON THE THRONE when it clearly states there two distinct and separate persons IN THAT PASSAGE?
Philippians 3:20-21 “But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.”
There are 3 - if you can not believe the Bible then who can you believe Jesus is sitting on the right hand of God the Father...sounds like 2
The Holy spirit as said above He will come and live in you. The Holy Spirit only raises up Jesus and praises Him
There is a good book about the Holy Spirit by Robert Morris
The God I Never knew This is all about the Holy Spirit and using SCRIPTURE it shows who He is
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Jhn 15:26 ¶ But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Act 5:3 But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back [part] of the price of the land for yourself? Act 5:4 "While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."
Philippians 3:20-21 “But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.”
Post by PrisonerOfHope on Oct 22, 2012 12:17:20 GMT -5
Wateredseeds, belief in a triune God is one of the basic tenets of the Christian faith.
The Triune God in the Scriptures
Do the Scriptures Contain Evidence of the Triune God? Father, Son and Holy Spirit?
Most certainly. The Triune God, ie., the Holy Trinity - Father, Son and Holy Spirit - is the only true God of the Bible. Numerous references to Father, Son and Spirit can be found in both the Old and New Testaments.
The Triune God in the Old Testament (the Hebrew Tanakh)
The Triune God Creates the Universe
Gen 1:1: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." The Father is portrayed as the creative source of all things. Gen 1:2: ".. and the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters." Here, in the second verse of Genesis, the Spirit of God appears as active in the creation process. Gen 1:3: "Then God said, "Let there be light; and there was light." The Son, the eternal Word of God, speaks the first of Gods works into existence.
The Triune God Creates Mankind
Gen 1:26: "Then God said, "Let Us [plural] make man in Our image, according to Our likeness...".
Gen 1:27: "So God [singular] created man in His [singular] own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them."
Pre-incarnation Appearance of the Son with Two Angels
Gen 18:1-2: "The LORD appeared to him by the terebinth trees of mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day. So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him." Gen 19:24: "Then the LORD rained brimestone and fire on Sodom and Gormorrah, from the LORD out of the heavens."
Here the LORD (YHVH) has appeared on earth to Abraham, along with two angels. Verse 24 described how the Son (LORD) while on the earth, rained brimstone and fire from the Father (LORD) out of the heavens.
The Triune God Seeks an Intercessor
Isaiah 6:8-10: "Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying: Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?" Here God refers first to Himself in the singular, then in the plural pronoun, confirming that there are multiple persons in the Godhead.
Isaiah 42:1-2: "Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom my soul delights! I have put my Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles."
The Pre-incarnate Son Speaks of the Father and Spirit
Isaiah 48:16 "Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord God and His Spirit have sent Me." In this instance the pre-incarnate Son of God is speaking, indicating that He will go on behalf of the Father and the Spirit and redeem God's creation.
The Triune God in the New Testament
We are to be Baptized in the Name (Singular) of the Triune God
Matthew 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." We are to baptize in the name of the three-person Lord - Father, Son and Spirit.
Father and Spirit at the Baptism of the Son
Mark 1:9-11 "It came to pass in those days that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized by John in the Jordan. And immediately, coming up from the water, He saw the heavens parting and the Spirit descending upon Him like a dove. Then a voice came from heaven, "You are My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." Here we have the Father, looking down approvingly at His beloved Son, while the Spirit descends and rests upon Him.
Paul Writes in Romans of the Three Person Lord
Romans 11:36: "For of Him, and through Him, and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen." Here Paul writes about the Spirit (of Him all things were created at the beginning), and through Him (Jesus, through whom the world was made), and to Him (the eternal Father).
The Holy Spirit Proclaimed as One with His Son
Galatians 4:6: "God has sent the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out "Abba, Father!". Here the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all referenced.
The Author of Hebrews Invokes the Triune God
Hebrews 9:14: "how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?"
Blessing Given in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit
2 Corinthians 13:14: "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen." Here we have the three persons of the Godhead described, each with their own distinctive qualities:
The grace of the Lord Jesus ("the law came by Moses, grace and truth by Jesus Christ" The love of God the Father ("God is love") The fellowship of the Holy Spirit ("I will give you another Comforter")
The Triune God Watches Over His Church
Acts 20:28 "Therefore, take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood."
Here we have the Holy Spirit acting as a person, appointing overseers to guide the church which He (God in Christ) purchased with His own blood.
Peter Acknowledges the Triune God
1 Peter 1-2: "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied."
Paul Writing to Timothy Invokes the Son, the Father and the Spirit
1 Timothy 3:16: "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."
Prayer for Realization of Christ, by His Spirit, from the Father
Ephesians 3:14-17: "For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height— to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God."
Please refrain from any further posts which are contrary to Biblical, mainstream, fundamental Christianity. This is your first warning. Here Paul is being led by the Spirit to pray for the Ephesian church. In his prayer he makes his request to the Father, that the Ephesians might be strengthened by His Spirit, that Christ might dwell in their hearts through faith.
Paul Writes about One Spirit, One Lord, One God and Father of All
Ephesians 4:4-6: "[There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all."
There is But One Way to the Father
"I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man comes to the Father except through Me", said Jesus.
Although God is at the same time Father, Son and Spirit, there is only one "way" to the Father - and that is through the eternal Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. God's eternal plan was to provide salvation through Jesus, and none other. As the Bible says, "there is no other name under heaven by which we must be saved." Why? Because only Jesus is the eternal God manifested in the flesh - only Jesus paid he ultimate price for the sin of mankind, past - present - and future. To any who believe and trust in Him, he brings into God's eternal family, the heavenly city He is building.
The works of the flesh, no matter how good, are simply not good enough to enable us to enter into eternal fellowship with our holy Creator. They are like filthy rags, and we must be clothed in white. But who will cover us? Who will take our dirty rags and give us white robes in return? There is only one who is up to the task -- JESUS.
So ... Why Not Give Jesus a Chance?
Why not give Him a chance and let Him prove Himself to you! What do you have to lose? Say a simple prayer and sincerely ask Him to come into your life and make you the person you were meant to be. He created you, after all, so why not give Him a chance to give you the best He has to offer? He has a plan for your life, so please - take Him up on it and live!
Philippians 3:20-21 “But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.”
Post by wateredseeds on Oct 22, 2012 13:11:30 GMT -5
Belief in a triune God is one of the CATHOLIC tenants of the faith.
I will say it this way so you can be sure. You can call Him 3 persons if you like...i choose not to. My problem isn't as much that, as it is that God only has ONE image.
You want proof? Have i not already proved it?
Every time you see a multiple illistration of God....only 1 IMAGE of God appears. The other EXPRESSION of God is a SYMBOL not an IMAGE.
Colossians tells us flat out that Jesus is the IMAGE of the INVISIBLE God. God Himself did not have an image until He created that image according to proverbs 8.
Hebrews calls Jesus the EXPRESS image of GOD THE FATHER.
If Jesus is the express IMAGE of God the Father...then is a separate image of God the Father? No.
"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."-Isaiah 9:6
Unto us a CHILD is born. Unto us a SON is given. The GOVERNMENT shall be upon His shoulder. HIS NAME SHALL BE CALLED EVERLASTING FATHER!
No one would dispute that this passage is talking about Jesus Christ. It calls Him a child born...and a Son. Then it tells us that He will be called the EVERLASTING FATHER!
You figure out how Jesus who you claim is NOT the Father, can be called EVERLASTING FATHER....if they are different people.
The truth? God is invisible. He had no image until before the foundations of the universe and the world were formed....He made His image(proverbs 8). Through that Image(Jesus)...He created ALL THINGS.
How many NAMES of God are there?
"And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one."-Zechariah 14:9
IN THAT DAY...His name shall be ONE. Not multiple.....ONE. What is the name of God right now(not His new name, His current name)?
"And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?"-Judges 13:18
Yahweh is NOT the name of God. It is what they called Him through the old testament...but it is NOT His name. What is His name?
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"-Matthew 28:19
Notice that it does not use a name in this passage...but the command is clear. When you baptize, use the NAME of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.
So what name did the disciples use when they baptized?
"When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus."-Acts 19:5
"Then Peter said unto them, Repent , and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."-Acts 2:38
"(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)"-Acts 8:16
You only ever see the disciples....the followers of Jesus baptize in the name of Jesus. You NEVER see them say "in the name of the father, son and holy ghost". They ALWAYS said Jesus' name when they baptized. This is a clear marker that they saw Jesus as the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive , because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you."-John 14:16-18
I WILL COME TO YOU. Jesus is the HOLY GHOST. Except how else can you say "Christ in me?"
"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live ; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."-Galatians 2:20
Christ liveth in me. How? Because He is the Holy Ghost.
Note: My caps are not shouting...just emphasising a word. I'm too lazy to bold everything. I am also aware that i'm going against 90% of the church here. This in my view is not an issue of salvation. It is an issue of how we understand and perceive the nature of God and who He is. One of these days i'm going to do a grand write up on this issue. A long thought out paper that goes point by point.
Post by wateredseeds on Oct 22, 2012 13:16:32 GMT -5
I was created in the image of God. I have a soul, a flesh and a spirit. Am i 3 people...or am i 1 person? In the same way, God expresses Himself as the Father(soul), the Son(flesh) and the Holy Ghost(spirit). Is He 3 people....or one person?
God is invisible. No man has seen God(as he originally exists). John tells us this.
"No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us."-1 John 4:12
No man has seen God. Isn't Jesus God? Yes he is. However, He is the IMAGE of God. God as He originally exists has no form. He is invisible.
Sorry, just wanted to expand a little. I'll work up a paper so you guys can see what i believe and why. I struggled with this for a long time. Particularly growing up trinitarian. I evolved over the years in my thoughts on this from the idea that He is 3 different people....with multiple images...to He is 3 different people with 1 image....to He is 1 person with 1 image expressed in multiple ways.
David, before you do any of that, you STILL have not answered any of my questions!
Philippians 3:20-21 “But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.”
“And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness...”
'Who' is this “us” and “our” God is speaking of when He said 'let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness...' ?
To me the use of 'us' and 'our' would indicate another person. 'Us' and 'our' image and 'our' likeness would indicate another person as well.
And furthermore :
God uses the word 'image' there. So what image was this and who was it fashioned after?
Philippians 3:20-21 “But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.”
Philippians 3:20-21 “But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.”
If Jesus is the express IMAGE of God the Father...then is a separate image of God the Father? No.
"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."-Isaiah 9:6
Unto us a CHILD is born. Unto us a SON is given. The GOVERNMENT shall be upon His shoulder. HIS NAME SHALL BE CALLED EVERLASTING FATHER!
No one would dispute that this passage is talking about Jesus Christ. It calls Him a child born...and a Son. Then it tells us that He will be called the EVERLASTING FATHER!
All that proves is Jesus Christ and the Father are ONE. Jesus is as much the Father as the Father is the Father, yet they are two distinct persons:
“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the FATHER, and of the SON, and of the HOLY GHOST” (Matthew 28:19).
Three persons, ONE God.
Philippians 3:20-21 “But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.”
Christ liveth in me. How? Because He is the Holy Ghost.
Then why did Jesus say the following?
"And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever-- " (John 14:16)
Philippians 3:20-21 “But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.”
Belief in a triune God is one of the CATHOLIC tenants of the faith.
So? They also believe in the Virgin Birth too does this mean the Virgin Birth is wrong as well?
Philippians 3:20-21 “But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.”
Post by wateredseeds on Oct 22, 2012 14:00:28 GMT -5
Did you read what i posted? i answered that last one. As for what i said i proved.....i was saying that about there being only one image of God. Not the multiple persons thing.
Post by wateredseeds on Oct 22, 2012 14:27:08 GMT -5
Let me state once again. I'm not opposed to trinitarianism. I'm opposed to what it has fundementally lead to. If i were to express myself in a trinitarian form it would be very close to this:
I don't agree with everything he says. I still believe God is 1 person...not 3 persons. However, jeffrey makes it clear at one point that we will not see 3 people.
"Justin Martyr was a great leader and writer in the early Church in a.d. 150. His writing declares that the doctrine of the Trinity was proclaimed with great clarity from the earliest ages of the Church. Justin and many of the early Church fathers wrote that it was Jesus Christ who appeared as God to Moses in the burning bush. He criticized the Jews for confusing the roles of God the Father with that of His Son in the passages of the Old Testament. Justin Martyr wrote,"-Grant Jeffrey
Jesus appeared to Moses. Every time God APPEARS it is as Jesus. That is what i believe. Not opposed to trinitarianism...just what it leads to. Which is what Grant Jeffrey states as well...that many people are confused and believe we will see 3 people sitting on 3 thrones or something along those lines.
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and THESE THREE ARE ONE." —1st John 5:7
The Bible, God’s Word, proclaims that there is ONE God (Deuteronomy 6:4), Who has revealed Himself to mankind in three distinct Persons; namely, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Although the term “Trinity” is not found in the Scriptures, the word “Godhead” most certainly is — in 3 places!
Romans 1:19, 20 states…
“Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and GODHEAD; so that they are without excuse.”
Some people (such as Muslims) foolishly claim that belief in a Godhead (aka, Trinity) means worship of three gods (polytheism). This simply reflects their woeful ignorance of the Word of God. The LORD our God is ONE Lord (Deuteronomy 6:4); but He does exist in three Persons, i.e., a Trinity.
Acts 17:29 states…
“Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the GODHEAD is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.”
Colossians 2:9…
“For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the GODHEAD bodily.”
1st John 5:7 is in the Original Greek. If there were no other verse of the King James Bible testifying of the Godhead, 1st John 5:7 would be enough for any Bible-believer to know that God exists in three Persons — the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit…
“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and THESE THREE ARE ONE.” —1st John 5:7
Now if you have a modern corrupt bible, then you won’t find 1st John 5:7 correctly rendered. I went out and bought a literal translation of the Bible in Greek and Hebrew, based on the “Textus Receptus” (or Received Text). It contains 1st John 5:7 just as the King James Bible faithfully renders. The translators of the King James Bible rejected certain manuscripts as heretical. The manuscripts which they did accept became know as the “Received Text.”
How Can One God Exist in Three Persons?
Some people feel like they have to provide an answer for every question. Well, that’s not true. Doctors are still perplexed as to what causes the human body to sneeze; but it’s an obvious fact. Mankind’s brightest secular scientists cannot with any certainty tell us how life began, nor can they tell us how big the universe is, nor can they create even the simplest of life forms in a laboratory. It makes infinite more sense to accept the Bible’s claim that God spoke the universe into existence by the Word of His mouth (2nd Peter 3:5). Ironically, the same people who refuse to believe the Bible without proof; readily believe the bogus tales of unsaved scientists, even without as much as a single shred of credible evidence to support their claims. This clearly evidences the wickedness of man’s heart against his divine Creator.
Colossians 2:2, 9 acknowledges the Godhead as a “mystery” …
“…to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ… For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.”
Colossians 2:9 plainly teaches that the Godhead became incarnate in the fleshly body of the Lord Jesus Christ. 1st Timothy 3:16 declare the same truth…
“And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh…”
Someone has said that "BIBLE" in acronym forms means:
B = Basic I = Instructions B = Before L = Leaving E = Earth
I like that. Too many people refuse to accept God at His Word and continually put God on trial in their mind. Can anyone really explain how ONE individual can exist in three Persons? I don’t see how. Some Bible-teachers like to use the fact that humans are composed of body, soul and spirit; but we are still one person; not three. This is not a good example of the Godhead. I can’t give you a good example, and won’t try. God is God and we don’t have to figure out how to describe Him to an unsaved world of Christ-rejecters. To those who believe, no explanation is necessary; to those who believe not, no explanation is possible. Let us just accept God as the Bible portrays Him.
The Scriptures identify each Person of the Godhead as “God.” The word "Godhead" is a Bible word (Acts 17:29, Romans 1:20, Colossians 2:9).
The Father is called God. Romans 15:6, “That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
Jesus is called God. “And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: GOD WAS MANIFEST IN THE FLESH, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.” 1st Timothy 3:16
Hebrews 1:8, “But unto the Son he [God] saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.”
Colossians 2:9, “For in him [Jesus] dwelleth ALL the fulness of the Godhead bodily.”
The Holy Ghost is called God. Acts 5:3-4, “But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? ...thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.”
1st Timothy 3:16, “And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: GOD WAS manifest in the flesh, JUSTIFIED IN THE SPIRIT, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”
The Godhead and Our Salvation
God the Father sent His only begotten Son (John 3:16). John 5:36, “But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.”
The Son was sent to be the propitiation (to appease the wrath of God) for our sins. 1st John 4:10, “Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.”
The Holy Spirit reproves us, teaches us, guides us and testifies of Jesus Christ. John 14:26, “But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”
John 15:26, “But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me.”
More Scriptures Testifying of the Godhead
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." —Matthew 28:19,20
"And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him [Jesus], and a voice came from heaven [God the Father], which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased." —Luke 3:22
Each Person of the Godhead SPEAKS AUDIBLY in the Bible.
God the Father SAID of Jesus in Matthew 3:17... "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
Jesus SAID in John 10:30, "I and my Father are one."
The Holy Ghost SAID in Acts 13:2... "Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them."
Each Person of the Godhead was Operative in the Old Testament.
The Father — Isaiah 64:8, “But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.”
Jesus — 1st Corinthians 10:1-4, 9, “Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: AND THAT ROCK WAS CHRIST. Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.”
The Holy Ghost — Hebrews 3:7-11, “Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved ME, and saw MY WORKS forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, they shall not enter into my rest.)” From the very first chapter in the Bible, God makes it known that He consists of more than one Person--
Genesis 1:26-27, “And God said, LET US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness...So God created man in his own image, in the image of God [not angels. the "us" can only refer to God.] created he him.”
Genesis 3:22, “And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil...”
When Isaiah had a vision of the Lord sitting upon a throne, the Lord asked him a question…
Isaiah 6:8, “Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for US? Then said I, Here am I; send me.”
In the Old Testament, we find that God has a Son (Proverbs 30:4, Psalm 2:7-12) and a Spirit (Isaiah 40:13, 2nd Samuel 23:2, Judges 3:10, et cetera). We also find that the LORD [Jesus] said that the LORD [God the Father] would send Him to the earth (Zechariah 2:10,11).
Didn’t the Trinity Teaching Originate in Pagan Religion?
Some false teachers today are claiming that the Biblical doctrine of the Godhead (Trinity) has it’s origin in pagan religion. This is not true at all. The fact of the matter is that Christianity predates ALL known religions. We read in Genesis 15:6 that Abram (Abraham) “believed in the LORD; and he [Jesus] counted it to him for righteousness.” Abraham lived around 2,000 B.C. It was the heathens who tried to imitate and corrupt genuine Christianity. This has always been Satan’s dirty game.
John 8:44 and John 10:10 tell us that the Devil is a big liar who comes only to kill, steal and destroy lives. Only a woefully ignorant person would dare claim that Christianity didn’t exist before the time Christ was born into the world. History and archaeology document that Old Testament Israel very much awaited and centered their religious beliefs around the coming Messiah. It was because of earlier prophecies that the 3-wise men journeyed from the east (likely from Babylon) to witness the birth of the Savior, Jesus, in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2). Is the Trinity "Pagan?"
Conclusion
The modern Bible perversions take out the word, "Godhead" and they attack the deity of Jesus Christ. One man told me that it was difficult for him to understand the deity of Jesus Christ while he read the New International Version (NIV). Once he changed over to the King James Bible, it was abundantly clear. This is no surprise to me.
To no surprise, the NIV oftentimes agrees with the Jehovah's (false) Witness’ New World Translation (NWT) in the verses it deletes. In fact, EVERY complete verse that the NIV deletes is deleted in the NWT. It also deletes many of the same words and phrases including 1st John 5:7.
The precious and trustworthy King James Bible teaches that there is ONE God, Who exists as a Godhead. It may not make good math; but it makes good Bible. We don’t need to comprehend or even partially understand the mystery of the Godhead to be saved, we simply need to come as a guilty sinner to the cross of Calvary and trust upon the blessed Son of God to wash away our sins with His redeeming blood (1st Peter 1:18,19).
IS THE TRINITY PAGAN ?
Many have adopted this accusation as the main complaint of hindrance to believing in evangelical Christianity. There is no other concept of God attacked more than this subject. There are many things about God that are not understood immediately, I've heard the same for predestination. I’ve heard it said "people don’t join the Evangelical church because they can’t understand the teaching on the Trinity". This is just one of many straw man arguments. People do not come to Christ because they don’t understand the numerous doctrines. They refuse to because they cannot admit they are sinful and are in need of help outside themselves. Turning over their control to God is an act of faith. Instead faith is substituted with the carnal mind wanting to understand something from strictly a human perspective. If I can't fully understand it I will not believe, but this is only an excuse. As Jesus stated in Jn.3:19-21" Men love darkness rather than light, they don't come to Christ because their deeds will be exposed". Both Jews and Muslim's emphatically deny that God has a Son, if one is going to find a doctrine offensive to them, I think this would be it. No one preaches the Trinity in salvation but what is preached is that Jesus is the Son of God, he is Lord. We learn about the nature of God and other basic doctrines as we grow in the faith, not before. The simple reason is we need the Holy Spirit to be our teacher in the deeper things of God.
Is the Trinity pagan? The pagan religions had what we call trinities however on closer examination they are not the same in concept or substance. In the same way we would not agree with all the other religions that have a strict monotheistic view of God to be embraced as the same God of the Bible. (Islam, Bahai) The pagan concept was encapsulated with a Father, Mother, giving birth to a Son. They were three major Gods with many minor god's as well. Their trinity was comprised of three Gods not one. The Greek triad of Zeus, Athena, and Apollo, the Hindu triad of Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva the Egyptian triad of Isis, Horus, and Sub bear no resemblance to the Biblical Trinity. They were all separate not united as the one God and almost unanimously had a mother involved as in a heavenly family. This was really tritheism, which has more in common with Mormonism than a triune God. Anti Trinitarians make usage of the statues with three heads and saying that is our pagan God. If one is going to discount the Trinity because of some similarities in name only and not in substance. Then maybe they should be looking at their own pagan similarities. One can still be in idolatry, if their one God is not the God of the Bible.
Anti Trinitarians make usage of the statues with three heads and saying that is our pagan God. If one is going to discount the Trinity because of some similarities in name only and not in substance. Then maybe they should be looking at their own pagan similarities. One can still be in idolatry, if their one God is not the God of the Bible.
Where did the pagans get a concept of three ? Why not two or four ? Where did they get the idea of a God in heaven anyway? What about their belief in a virgin and a son, where did that originate from ? Rom.1:20-25 tells us that man from the beginning knew God."... 'and their foolish hearts were darkened" vs.25 "they exchanged the truth for a lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the creator." When mankind fell into darkness of sin, they still retained some elements of the truth but distorted its meaning and it became lost.
As Walter Martin wrote "In order to find out if the doctrine of the Trinity is true, we do not look to see if it resembles paganism, but to the bible, to see if God teaches it in his word. Pagans also believe in the concept of God. does this mean that God must not be true? Pagans sleep. Does that mean sleeping is wrong ? We must not dismiss an idea merely because it is held in common with those whom we may not approve." (the New Cults p.49) Lets not try to find all kinds of perversions from the outside that have nothing to do with the Biblical record, lets go to the Scripture to prove our major points.
Alexander Hislop, in his book, "the two Babylon's", traces the history of the practices and traditions of the Roman Catholic church. He writes on pg. 18, "All these forms have existed from ancient times, while overcome with idolatry, the recognition of the Trinity was universal, proving how deep rooted in the human race was the doctrine on the subject , which comes out so distinctly in Genesis" Robert watts in New Apologetic says "The Pagan triads are "residuary fragments of their lost knowledge of God, not different stages in a process of evolution. But evidence of a moral and spiritual degradation" (Augustus H. Strongs systematic Theology p.352)
While their are Pagan Trinities which can be traced back to Babylon, instead of supporting anti Trinitarian views such as the Watchtower literature promotes, it is evidence for the tri-une God. Lets not try to find all kinds of perversions from the outside that have nothing to do with the Biblical record, lets go to the Scripture to prove our major points
Hislop writes that many pagan religions held to one infinite God the creator. Strict monotheism is found in Islam and a few other religions. Are we now to accept their view because God is called one (singular).
If we are to reject the concept of the triune God, a unified one, because of the pagan distortions, then we must reject much more than this. The pagan cultures also had a virgin birth and some even had a resurrection, Tammuz died and raised 40 days later. The pagan religions had a priesthood and sacrifices, this too became distorted with human sacrifices for Gods blessings. Some Pagans believed that certain gods became men. They had Biblical symbology such as a dove, the lamb, altars, their are many religions that have distortions of the Bibles account of the flood. Are we now to reject Genesis because of their misrepresentations. They also practiced tongues- ecstatic babble. All of these are counterfeits and distortions of truth, yet we are told since they have a counterfeit Trinity, we are to reject the Biblical Trinity on the same grounds. If you are going to do that, then you must reject all of it on the basis of it being found in some form in ancient paganism. You then annihilate the doctrine of Christ as the God/man, virgin birth, his sacrifice etc. All these are the proof of what Paul explained of what happened in history in Romans one, that mankind had a true knowledge but refused to worship him and sank into idolatry.
The God of the Bible is unique. He is tri-une, which is neither polytheistic nor is it tri-theistic. God is one in nature and is composed of three distinct eternal persons. They are one in substance with a difference in position. What makes all three the one God is that they share the same nature. This is the simple description of the God of the Bible. There is one choice from the Bibles revelation, if one denies the tri-une God, they are either left with atheism or polytheism.
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." —The Lord Jesus Christ Matthew 28:19