Trinitarianism VS Oneness, and what the bible says
Jan 30, 2012 14:23:16 GMT -5
Post by wateredseeds on Jan 30, 2012 14:23:16 GMT -5
So I go to an assemblies of God church. I pretty much agree with everything in the doctrinal statement of the assemblies of God. But then i realized, that i did disagree with something. You see, i've always gone to trinitarian churches. What's the major characteristic of a trinitarian church?
When they baptize someone(regardless of age), they always say "I baptize you in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit."
This would seem to be done in accordance with Matthew 28:19 which says, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." However, i disagree as to the sentiment. Jesus' command was to baptize in the NAME...but then He listed titles only. So the question is, WHAT NAME SHOULD WE BE USING? Of course we look to the new testament, and what the apostles taught and did, and we can easily find the answer.
"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."-Acts 2:38
"But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women."-Acts 8:12
"For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus."-Acts 8:16
"When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus."-Acts 19:5
"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?"-Romans 6:3
And so we can easily see that the apostles taught that it was proper to baptize in the name of Jesus Christ. So why the confusion? The typical trinitarian believes that God exists in 3 persons, but is still 1 God. But is that essentially true according to the scriptures? Are they actually 3 distinct and different PERSONS? I would say they are not different persons, but that they are 1 person operating in different OFFICES. Notice that each of the 3 listed by Jesus in matthew 28:19 are titles and not names. Is it not taking away from the glory of the Father to baptize in the name of Jesus? No, and here's why.
"I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive."-John 5:43
Jesus claimed to come in His Father's name. But how is that possible? The name Jesus in it's final state is a translation through 3 languages. His original name was Yahshua according to the hebrew and aramaic. Yahshua was translated into greek which became Yeshua, then into the latin which became Iessus, and then into english which became JESUS. What's cool about it is that His name in the hebrew and aramaic as yahshua, contains the abbreviation for Yahweh, in the form Yah. The entire name itself has a very distinct and important meaning. Yahweh, our salvation. So Jesus didn't just come in His father's name....he took the name that represented that salvation comes FROM THE FATHER. But Jesus died for us....so how is it that salvation comes from the father. And of course that is an easy one. Jesus is the Father in the flesh.
"7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. 8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? 10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.'-John 14:7-11
Jesus claimed to be the Father in the flesh. And the truth that He has always existed, and is simply the Father in the flesh form...is found in John 1.
"1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."-John 1:1-3
He was with God, and He WAS God. But here is where oneness and trinitarianism get fuzzy. Oneness teaches that Jesus never existed apart from the Father, until His fleshly form. Trinitarians say that He ALWAYS existed apart from the Father. But surprisingly, NEITHER is true.
" 17I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.
18Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.
19My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.
20I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:
21That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.
22The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
23I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
24When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
26While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
27When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
28When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
29When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
30Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
31Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.
32Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways.
33Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.
34Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.
35For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD.
36But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death."-Proverbs 8:17-36
This appears to be an explanation of John 1. Which is that Jesus while ALWAYS existing within the Father, was BROUGHT FORTH to stand BESIDE the Father. He was daily the delight of the Father. How do we reconcile this? It's really simple. We are made up of 3 parts. Flesh, Soul and Spirit. If my Spirit were to leave my body...is the experience that my Spirit has not my experience? It is my experience. And in fact, this happened to several people. John the apostle accounted for being in the Spirit...and caught up on the Lords day. Paul also says the same kind of thing...though he doesn't know whether in the body or out of the body. But the point is still the same. Whether in the body or out of the body...what your flesh experiences, YOU experience. What your spirit experiences, YOU experience. What your soul experiences, YOU experience. And it is the same for God. Though Jesus was separated from God in the beginning...for the purpose of our salvation....everything that He experienced, was the experience of God the Father and the Spirit of God. This is also why we say Jesus lives in me. You see, Jesus is the name of all 3. He bears that name. He bears the name of Yahweh. It's amazing to think of it in these terms.
One final thing. In the beginning, God separated Himself(and created us in his image). He did this to fulfill a specific purpose. But what happens when that purpose is fulfilled?
"1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely."-Revelation 21:1-6
Notice the distinct difference from Revelation 19-21. In chapter 19, Jesus comes as the conquering hero. In chapter 20, Christ REIGNS for 1000 years. But in chapter 21, it is no more Christ that reigns(in title i mean). Notice that it specifically names God as coming down from heaven(saying He was in heaven and not on earth during that time). What happens as a result of this?
Notice in verse 5 that it speaks of a SINGULAR throne. And then later in the passage it says this:
"22And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.'-Revelation 21:22-23
The way it speaks about the Lord God Almighty AND the Lambe as being the temple of it....insinuate that they are one and the same at this point. And in fact, that is the only way to make sense of the passage. The question we could ask in all of this talking about the Father and the Son is WHERE IS THE HOLY GHOST? The most obvious thing to say is that the Holy Ghost upon the fulfillment in title and office once the Lord CALLS HIS AMBASSADORS HOME.....went back to being ONE WITH THE FATHER. We don't see mention of Him...because He is the Father, and the Father is Him...and they are in each other....and together. So when we say God Almighty at this moment...we are also saying the Holy Spirit...because He is within the Father at this point...and is almighty God. So what about this idea that Jesus will also be one with the Father? Where do we get all of this? Remember that in Proverbs 8, Jesus was called forth FROM the Father, to stand beside Him and be His delight.
"23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."-1 Corinthians 15:23-28
Notice that Jesus SURRENDERS the kingdom to the Father. And then they once again become "all in all". If this is true....God will manifest very much as "Elohim" again. In the sense that all 3 parts of God...will act in ONE function and purpose again. Just as before Jesus was called out of the Father.
Thoughts and questions? I know this is a very strange way of looking at it...but i believe that both oneness and trinitarians get it wrong. It is 3 in 1...but it isn't 3 persons, it is 1 person with 3 titles and 3 functions. It is 1 person that has called out from himself that which has manifested. Does that make sense?
When they baptize someone(regardless of age), they always say "I baptize you in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit."
This would seem to be done in accordance with Matthew 28:19 which says, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." However, i disagree as to the sentiment. Jesus' command was to baptize in the NAME...but then He listed titles only. So the question is, WHAT NAME SHOULD WE BE USING? Of course we look to the new testament, and what the apostles taught and did, and we can easily find the answer.
"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."-Acts 2:38
"But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women."-Acts 8:12
"For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus."-Acts 8:16
"When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus."-Acts 19:5
"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?"-Romans 6:3
And so we can easily see that the apostles taught that it was proper to baptize in the name of Jesus Christ. So why the confusion? The typical trinitarian believes that God exists in 3 persons, but is still 1 God. But is that essentially true according to the scriptures? Are they actually 3 distinct and different PERSONS? I would say they are not different persons, but that they are 1 person operating in different OFFICES. Notice that each of the 3 listed by Jesus in matthew 28:19 are titles and not names. Is it not taking away from the glory of the Father to baptize in the name of Jesus? No, and here's why.
"I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive."-John 5:43
Jesus claimed to come in His Father's name. But how is that possible? The name Jesus in it's final state is a translation through 3 languages. His original name was Yahshua according to the hebrew and aramaic. Yahshua was translated into greek which became Yeshua, then into the latin which became Iessus, and then into english which became JESUS. What's cool about it is that His name in the hebrew and aramaic as yahshua, contains the abbreviation for Yahweh, in the form Yah. The entire name itself has a very distinct and important meaning. Yahweh, our salvation. So Jesus didn't just come in His father's name....he took the name that represented that salvation comes FROM THE FATHER. But Jesus died for us....so how is it that salvation comes from the father. And of course that is an easy one. Jesus is the Father in the flesh.
"7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. 8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? 10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.'-John 14:7-11
Jesus claimed to be the Father in the flesh. And the truth that He has always existed, and is simply the Father in the flesh form...is found in John 1.
"1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."-John 1:1-3
He was with God, and He WAS God. But here is where oneness and trinitarianism get fuzzy. Oneness teaches that Jesus never existed apart from the Father, until His fleshly form. Trinitarians say that He ALWAYS existed apart from the Father. But surprisingly, NEITHER is true.
" 17I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.
18Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.
19My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.
20I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:
21That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.
22The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
23I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
24When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
26While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
27When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
28When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
29When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
30Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
31Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.
32Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways.
33Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.
34Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.
35For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD.
36But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death."-Proverbs 8:17-36
This appears to be an explanation of John 1. Which is that Jesus while ALWAYS existing within the Father, was BROUGHT FORTH to stand BESIDE the Father. He was daily the delight of the Father. How do we reconcile this? It's really simple. We are made up of 3 parts. Flesh, Soul and Spirit. If my Spirit were to leave my body...is the experience that my Spirit has not my experience? It is my experience. And in fact, this happened to several people. John the apostle accounted for being in the Spirit...and caught up on the Lords day. Paul also says the same kind of thing...though he doesn't know whether in the body or out of the body. But the point is still the same. Whether in the body or out of the body...what your flesh experiences, YOU experience. What your spirit experiences, YOU experience. What your soul experiences, YOU experience. And it is the same for God. Though Jesus was separated from God in the beginning...for the purpose of our salvation....everything that He experienced, was the experience of God the Father and the Spirit of God. This is also why we say Jesus lives in me. You see, Jesus is the name of all 3. He bears that name. He bears the name of Yahweh. It's amazing to think of it in these terms.
One final thing. In the beginning, God separated Himself(and created us in his image). He did this to fulfill a specific purpose. But what happens when that purpose is fulfilled?
"1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely."-Revelation 21:1-6
Notice the distinct difference from Revelation 19-21. In chapter 19, Jesus comes as the conquering hero. In chapter 20, Christ REIGNS for 1000 years. But in chapter 21, it is no more Christ that reigns(in title i mean). Notice that it specifically names God as coming down from heaven(saying He was in heaven and not on earth during that time). What happens as a result of this?
Notice in verse 5 that it speaks of a SINGULAR throne. And then later in the passage it says this:
"22And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.'-Revelation 21:22-23
The way it speaks about the Lord God Almighty AND the Lambe as being the temple of it....insinuate that they are one and the same at this point. And in fact, that is the only way to make sense of the passage. The question we could ask in all of this talking about the Father and the Son is WHERE IS THE HOLY GHOST? The most obvious thing to say is that the Holy Ghost upon the fulfillment in title and office once the Lord CALLS HIS AMBASSADORS HOME.....went back to being ONE WITH THE FATHER. We don't see mention of Him...because He is the Father, and the Father is Him...and they are in each other....and together. So when we say God Almighty at this moment...we are also saying the Holy Spirit...because He is within the Father at this point...and is almighty God. So what about this idea that Jesus will also be one with the Father? Where do we get all of this? Remember that in Proverbs 8, Jesus was called forth FROM the Father, to stand beside Him and be His delight.
"23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."-1 Corinthians 15:23-28
Notice that Jesus SURRENDERS the kingdom to the Father. And then they once again become "all in all". If this is true....God will manifest very much as "Elohim" again. In the sense that all 3 parts of God...will act in ONE function and purpose again. Just as before Jesus was called out of the Father.
Thoughts and questions? I know this is a very strange way of looking at it...but i believe that both oneness and trinitarians get it wrong. It is 3 in 1...but it isn't 3 persons, it is 1 person with 3 titles and 3 functions. It is 1 person that has called out from himself that which has manifested. Does that make sense?