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Post by wateredseeds on Mar 1, 2012 14:17:47 GMT -5
biblecodedigest.com/page.php?PageID=806While i always like to remind people that bible codes are a theory, and that even though there are some obviously divine codes such as the Jesus codes laid out in "Bible Code Bombshell", they are said at time to reflect viewpoints. While i do personally believe that the statistical anomalies known as the bible code are significant...using them as a predictor of the future is ill advised and even dangerous. I believe God has put His marker on the bible and validated it....but outside of recognizing that fact...we shouldn't read too much in to bible codes. Still it is interesting what they find. To spoil it for you, they say that the next president will be Mitt Romney. Even going so far as to say that God's hand is upon him. Obviously if he wins, that is true...as God ordains our leaders. But it must also be noted that it doesn't necessarily mean Romney will be good for us. Pharoah was used by God to get them to leave Egypt(did you know they didn't want to leave?). Though there is a level of insinuation that God is working through Romney to possibly accomplish good things.....it's hard for me to believe that Romney would be much better than Obama. The true test to me...is can he end abortion in this country? We are almost 40 years after Roe, and i believe it has caused a cutting off in our nation.
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Post by PrisonerOfHope on Mar 1, 2012 15:51:10 GMT -5
Please don't put much (if any) stock into this - it's really just divination, and forbidden. Hopefully, we'll be home by Election Day. I think this whole "Anyone BUT Obama" was precisely their plan from the start - it's the ol' Hegelian Dialectic. With more and more states accepting homosexuality and gay "marriage," American is overdue for judgment. What's interesting is how so many Tea Party people practically worship Glenn Beck, who has subtly and slowly changed his show from news to something that reeks of ecumenism and false spirituality - "We have to band together to save America!" Now we have Wilfred Mittens Romney, another Mormon. Check out "The White Horse Prophecy!"  |
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Post by wateredseeds on Mar 1, 2012 16:22:19 GMT -5
POH,
I think it is incorrect to classify bibles codes as "divination". For one, they come from the bible. Two, the purpose of the bible codes isn't to predict the future(while some people do try to use it for such). I HIGHLY recommend the book "Bible Code Bombshell" by Edwin Sherman. Not only does it display some of the most startlingly accurate and lenghthy codes....almost all of the most significant codes have to do with Jesus being the messiah. I'm a mathematical person by nature, and i look at the statistal significance of bible codes. I would disregard the romney codes...EXCEPT that they were found by Moshe Aharon Shak who is one of a few experts on the codes that is actually decent. We're not talking about statistically insignificant things here. We're talking about impossibilities, that only God could coordinate. This isn't a "michael drosnin" code. Drosnin's version of codes were mostly very insignificant(though he did stumble on a few gems, like the yitzhak rabin codes, but had help with them). I also think it's important to note that many of the more significant codes, have messages which mirror the passage they come from.
Most code experts...and i'm talking ACTUAL EXPERTS agree that they reflect viewpoints more than necessary futuristic events. However, they all acknowledge that the bible codes have been very successful in predicting certain events(assuming the code was statistically significant).
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Post by PrisonerOfHope on Mar 1, 2012 18:55:47 GMT -5
It's still divination if it's being used to predict the future. Seriously, do you think the Bible can't be misused? It is all the time, by people who take Scriptures out of context, for those who use it like a sort of Magic 8 Ball (open the book at random and get a word from "god!"), and let's not forget all the nut cases who torture numbers from the Bible to "predict" the date of the rapture.l
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Post by wateredseeds on Mar 2, 2012 1:57:29 GMT -5
I think to call it divination is to seriously misunderstand the handwriting of God within the bible. Do you not think that every letter was carefully chosen because it reflected the knowledge and will of God? Can it be misused? Yes. Just as the stars are misused...even though they have been set for SIGNS AND FOR SEASONS. But we all too often ignore the purpose of the stars. Anything that is seen from the stars, or determined from the stars, is all to often relegated to divination or astrology. But God's purpose is much greater. I don't believe that we should simply believe everything that someone says is from the bible code(just as we don't trust the teachers who say something is from the bible itself)....but i don't think we should invalidate it simply because some people misuse it. Can it not be used to prove that God's handwriting is all over the bible? That was actually the original intention of the people who discovered the codes. Eliyahu Rips and Dorum Witzum who wrote ELS sequences in the book of Genesis, were only looking to validate God within the word. Some of the most significant things you could ever imagine have been discovered in the bible codes.
The isaiah 53 cluster has yielded codes that are not only statistically impossible......but you could actually count the number of stars....and having only 1 chance in the amount of the number of stars is greater than to come up with the significant codes in the isaiah 53 cluster.
One of the ELS's found in Isaiah 53, is 22 letters long in the hebrew(not the most significant in the cluster)....and coherently speaks to us "Gushing from above, my mighty name arose upon Jesus and the clouds rejoiced". Mathematically, that one string of letters alone...appearing in the entire old testament, carries the small odds of 1 in about 66 billion that it could occur by chance. The odds of the entire Isaiah 53 cluster occurring by chance is so high...that you could begin to count right now...and counting so fast that you could count one number every tenth of a second...and it would still take you more than a TRILLION years to randomly come up with the isaiah 53 cluster. Bible codes are by design. But they have to be valid, and statistically significant. I'm not saying we should use it to predict the future.....but i am saying we can use them to understand God a little better.
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Post by mitchrg on Mar 2, 2012 3:43:11 GMT -5
I heard the same method of coding can be done with any book and had been done with Moby Dick. Besides, if Bible Coding was important, why hasn't it been done over the past 2000 years and only a recent activity. I don't know much about it really, I'd rather read and apply what is clearly written in Scriptures. Any effort beyond that is man's interpretation and all too tiring. Blessings to all.
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Post by PrisonerOfHope on Mar 2, 2012 14:42:58 GMT -5
You're absolutely right, Mitch; so-called "secret codes" have been found in other books.
WS, yes, the handwriting of God is all over the Bible...but it is WRONG to use it for divination. Deut. 18:10 is clear: "There shall not be found among you [any one]...that useth divination." It doesn't say, "except for the Bible." NO divination....period.
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Post by wateredseeds on Mar 2, 2012 16:57:34 GMT -5
2 things. One....like i said, it's not something we use to "predict the future". While it is possible to find codes in the bible about something before it happens...it doesn't necessarily mean it will happen.
Second, if you had ANY idea about bible codes at all...you would understand that the kind of things being found in the bible...are NOT possible with any other book. In fact, let's do this...I'll challenge you to use ELS sequencing in ANY book OTHER than the bible and see if you can find a code in it that is COHERENT, MAKES SENSE, and is STATISTICALLY IMPOSSIBLE. Can you do it? No. The last attempt to discredit bible codes was done with war and peace.
I've only ever seen, passing opinion pieces done on the analysis between other major books beside the bible. War and Peace and Moby Dick were relevant for producing statistically POSSIBLE codes. We're talking, 6-8 letter coherent codes. But NEVER have i seen ANY paper produce COHERENT codes using ELS sequencing in ANY book other than the bible...that was more than 15 letters long. And what we're talking about is infantile in comparison to the bible codes. The long outdated ideology of producing bible codes by searching for short terms that are near each other...has been proven invalid. What we're talking about, is developing lengthy SENTENCES AND THOUGHTS.
Show me 1 COHERENT CODE FROM WAR AND PEACE OR MOBY DICK THAT PRODUCES A SENTENCE OR THOUGHT THAT IS 22 LETTERS OR LONGER.
They don't exist. If you would research this matter further, you would even see that books like "the bible code" by Michael Drosins(moron)....show only statistically insignificant codes. He tried to cherry pick words and say they were relevant. It's kind of like the people that use the bible code to say Jesus was a false messiah....because his name appears encoded next to "false messiah". The name Jesus is only 4 letters long in hebrew...and statistically speaking should appear everywhere and next to every term in the biblecode. What makes something significant, is the probability factor. When you string together sentences that are 8 letters or longer...and find them in coordination to other thoughts of the same subject....or extend the ELS sequence to 22 or 56 letters long. All of the ACTUAL experts agree on this one thing.....some of the codes found in the bible are impossible without divine intervention.
Below is from Biblecodedigest
What has been the main response of skeptics to the claims of code proponents?
Similar kinds of codes can be found in any book.
Are the skeptics right?
Definitely not. All the skeptics showed was that very simple clusters of short codes can be found in any book. The examples they provided from Moby Dick and War and Peace were fairly comparable to many of the simpler published examples, but they are seriously out of date. Some proponents’ recently discovered clusters of Bible codes are so complex and extensive that they really couldn’t be a coincidence. The most extensive cluster of Bible codes found to date (the Isaiah 53 cluster) is vastly more complex and improbable than the most extensive cluster found in any book other than the Bible. There really is no comparison.
What skeptics were saying 5 or 10 years ago...is COMPLETELY OUT OF DATE. Can you take a book at random and find codes in it? Yes. Can you find statistically impossible codes in it that are relevant to the surface text? No. Bible codes are unique in that they produce so much more than what any man written book can produce.
Finally, it is important to know that the experts say that the bible codes do NOT tell the future...they express viewpoints. Some of these viewpoints might be false. But can they be found in any book? No. The statistical probability of the Isaiah 53 cluster is happening by random chance is 1 in 265,900 with antoher 256 zeroes added on to it. The amount of ELS sequences possible is a little over 2 trillion, which means that in relation to the amount of text available....it couldn't have possible happen by chance. A "google" has 100 zeroes, what we're talking about is not only impossible.....it's not even fathomable. The fact that this cluster come from Isaiah 53, and is ABOUT JESUS, makes it even more significant. You can't even begin to calculate those odds.
NOT ONE EXAMPLE HAS BEEN GIVEN FROM ANY OTHER BOOK....THAT YIELDS EVEN CLOSE TO SUCH AN EXAMPLE. SHOW ME ONE.
If you are unaware, one of the things that bible code experts like to do...is randomize the text of the bible to run a "test case" on all ELS's found. In the same amount of text, randomized....the bible becomes just like Moby Dick or War and Peace. No longer able to yield the kind of codes that exist like the Isaiah 53 cluster.
In order to understand the difference between experts like Dr. Eliyahu Rips(who was the subject of Michael Drosnin's book the bible code), and someone like Michael Drosnin himself....you have to realize that Dr. Rips denounced the findings in the bible code book. Dr. Rips was one of the people that introduced torah codes to the world. The interest of true experts is not to sensationalize the phenomenon, it is to gain accurate insight into the divine nature of the word of God.
Is it wrong to use the codes to predict the future? Like i said, the experts agree that they only express viewpoints. So you can't predict the future in the first place with the codes. You can claim that a possibility exists. But then the question becomes...what if that is the only possibility listed? How likely is it that the bible code wouldn't include important events like who the president of the united states will be? In fact, all of the codes found that have related to historical events and figures...were there long before they happened. So might you find something relevant to the future? Yes. But to say it WILL HAPPEN...is not possible. That is where some people go wrong.
But once again, i will end this conversation...if you can produce for me even one instance in which a book other than the bible has yielded a code EVEN CLOSE to the significance of the Isaiah 53 cluster.
I HIGHLY RECOMMEND THE BOOK "Bible Code Bombshell" by Edwin Sherman, Nathan Jacobi and Dave Swaney. They answer a lot of questions in there about why many of the torah codes aren't significant at all....and why the ones that they claim are significant....are considered as such.
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Post by mitchrg on Mar 2, 2012 17:29:10 GMT -5
If the Bible codes are not to be used to predict the future and only state current events, doesn't the newspaper do that? If God determined the Bible code, What is the purpose? Please give me an idea. I'm not going to buy a book unless I see value in the knowledge gained. I believe all that God wants us to know is clearly written.
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Post by PrisonerOfHope on Mar 2, 2012 18:11:31 GMT -5
Sure, one can read what the Bible prophesied in the newspaper as current events - that's just confirmation that the Bible is true.
There "might" be some value to the Bible Code after the fact as further proof that the Bible is real, but never, ever are we told that divination is permitted. That's what gets me so angry with the people from the nutty end times sites - they just don't get it, and are constantly trying to prove Jesus wrong by trying to figure out the date of the rapture, and by using every silly thing as a "sign" - which is also contrary to Scripture. I think they may be skirting with blaspheming the Holy Spirit by putting words in His mouth that He never said. Same with the so-called "words of knowledge" that Pat Robertson and others are known for - they're nothing more than an attempt to "Christianize" psychic "powers."
If you want a good book that shows the fingerprints of God all over the Bible, check out The King James Code by Mike Hoggard. You can get it from his ministry for a donation in any amount.
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Post by wateredseeds on Mar 2, 2012 19:42:42 GMT -5
The King James Code...now THAT is putting words in God's mouth. The bible code uses numberics just like the king james code....but for the purpose of confirming THE SIGNATURE OF GOD. The King James Bible as an english translation...is NOT inspired in and of itself. Only the original hebrew, greek and aramaic are inspired. That is one thing i really dislike about Mike Hoggard. I love him....LOVE HIM an almost everything. In fact, the mother of all secrets is one of my favorite teachings of all time. But to claim that the KJV is inspired text as a translation....is just as blasphemous if not more than the use of bible codes to confirm God's handwriting in the word.
The thing you have to understand about the bible code, is that 99% of all codes have been found AFTER THE FACT. The isaiah 53 codes are probably one of the greatest examples of the PURPOSE of the bible code in action. The isaiah 53 codes, are about Jesus as messiah....and they mirror the surface text of Isaiah 53, AND they accurately portray the new testament testimony of Jesus as the messiah. The odds are beyond what we can comprehend of that happening by chance.
Now...that being said, the topic post was about the presidential elections. The experts are typically very eager to explain that a bible code is not confirmation that something will happen. But Shak is very much insinuating that the bible code only gives one real possibility for the presidential election. The question is, if the bible code was put there on purpose....what can we do with it?
I also want to point out once again.....the stars were put into the heavens to be for signs and for seasons. If people misuse them...is that a reason to disregard them?
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Post by wateredseeds on Mar 2, 2012 19:44:27 GMT -5
"There "might" be some value to the Bible Code after the fact as further proof that the Bible is real, but never, ever are we told that divination is permitted."-POH
This statement, i totally agree with though. I think it is irresponsible to present findings from the bible code to be prophecies of the future. Most code experts don't do that. They will outline possibilities, but never make solid claims. This is one of the few times that Shak i think didn't distinguish very well in his analysis.
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Post by wateredseeds on Mar 2, 2012 19:46:14 GMT -5
And I also want to point out the first paragraph of my original post. I very clearly stated that it was dangerous to use the bible codes to predict the future. I think of it as more of an interesting thought about the divinity of God and His ability to put His fingerprints in the bible in a very scientific way. It's almost impossible to predict the future from the bible codes in the first place....because you have to know what to look for.
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Post by PrisonerOfHope on Mar 2, 2012 22:11:03 GMT -5
WS, have you even read "The King James Code," or listened to Hoggard's videos on the subject? They leave no doubt that it's the purest English translation, and the "code" might be God's way of affirming that.
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Post by shann0 on Mar 2, 2012 23:56:10 GMT -5
I can't believe I missed this thread...
I have studied the codes at great length... I agree with wateredseeds. The Bible Code Bombshell book is the difinitive authority on the codes. That book proves without a shadow of a doubt that the codes are real, and that it is statistically impossible for them to be there unless they were put there by God Himself. Sure other books may claim to have codes, but they cannot compete with the quality, relevance or length of the codes in the bible. There is simply no comparison.
That being said, I also agree with wateredseeds that it is impossible, and even foolish to try to use the codes to predict future events. The codes can be used as a method of authenticating that the scriptures are intact, unchanged and also of their divine inspiration. If the scriptures had been changed in any way, the codes would disappear.
The nature of the codes is such that they express many viewpoints regarding various events, from all perspectives, for and against, so really they could never be used to predict the future. Besides that , the only way you know what to search for would be if the event had already taken place.
I disagree that the bible was only inspired in the original manuscripts however. We do not have the original manuscripts.... and we never have, and we never will... God's fingerprints are all over the KJV, and I do believe that it is inspired. Just my opinion.
The Romney thing is only mildly interesting... As I recall, the last election they came out with some codes too. I think they got it wrong then... can't remember for certain, it was so long ago. Good discussion though guys. I'll try to pay attention better next time.
PS, I have a copy of the Bible Code Bombshell book listed in the trading post section, if anyone is interested in it, I will send it to you for the cost of postage.. God Bless.
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Post by wateredseeds on Mar 3, 2012 0:08:13 GMT -5
Shanno,
Thanks for the input. I believe that last time they predicted that Obama or Clinton would win...but they didn't say clearly who out of them.
As for the KJV, i have studied the KJV(and listened to hoggard on this)....and i would definitively argue that if the KJV were in itself inspired....there wouldn't be so many errors in the translation of the KJV. There are some major issues with the KJV...and THAT is why i don't see it as being inspired in and of itself. However...i do agree that it is the purest english translation commonly available. I also agree that the translation text, which is the textus receptus is the BEST text we have...and is far superior to the alexandrian.
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Post by shann0 on Mar 3, 2012 10:36:10 GMT -5
I am of the mind that God is able to preserve His Word, and He has promised to do so... It was His intention to bring the Gentiles into His kingdom from the beginning. I do not believe that He would have forced us to learn a new language so we could read His Word... As for errors in the KJV, I have not seen any that could not be explained with a closer reading of the words in context.
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Post by wateredseeds on Mar 3, 2012 11:54:53 GMT -5
Okay...if the KJV is indeed "inspired" in and of itself....is there an "inspired" translation available in every language? That's what i don't understand. Why do we think God elevates the english language above others? He doesn't.
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Post by shann0 on Mar 3, 2012 12:13:51 GMT -5
Obviously, I wouldn't know since I don't know any other languages but English, but if I had to guess I would say that yes, there should be one in every language... God is not limited by language barriers. He is able to preserve His Word in what ever manner He wishes.
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