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Post by PrisonerOfHope on Jul 28, 2012 15:16:15 GMT -5
You're not getting it: Salvation IS a free gift, and no one can snatch someone out of God's hands....but they CAN choose to jump out!
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Post by wateredseeds on Jul 28, 2012 16:08:45 GMT -5
POH,
If someone can jump out...and i'm not agreeing or disagreeing in that point....what exactly constitutes jumping out? Is it that they stop having faith? Or is it that they live a life full of sin? No amount of sin can overcome the grace of God or set aside the sacrifice of Christ. As long as someone truly believes in His sacrifice for their sins....then they are saved.
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Post by baydoll on Jul 28, 2012 17:25:51 GMT -5
You're not getting it: Salvation IS a free gift, and no one can snatch someone out of God's hands....but they CAN choose to jump out! Arlene, look at what the passage says: "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. I and My Father are one." First of all, are you greater than the Father? The Savior says, “NO ONE is ABLE to snatch them out of MY HAND.” I'm thinking that would include you or me or anyone else who decides one day they want to jump out of His Hand. He is saying THEY ARE NOT ABLE TO DO THAT. And HE IS NOT GOING TO LET THAT HAPPEN. To say otherwise would mean that you are greater than the Father. Secondly, He said THEY ARE MINE (My FATHER, Who has give given them to Me) meaning we are HIS possession, He bought us and paid for us so therefore He is NOT GOING TO LET GO OF His possession. He said THESE ARE MINE and He will NOT lose any of them...(they will never perish, EVER). Lastly, you say, “They may chose to jump out his hand all by themselves.” but how can this be true when He said, “They shall never perish”  If what you say is true then that statement is wrong and Jesus just lied to us. It should instead read as thus: "I give them eternal life, but some of them will perish because they decided one day they wanted to jump out of my Hand."  |
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Post by wateredseeds on Jul 28, 2012 23:02:04 GMT -5
Yep....baydoll is right.
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Post by baydoll on Jul 29, 2012 11:02:08 GMT -5
"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries...Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. [It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." ~ Heb. 10:26-32 If what you say is true and that passage means that a believer can lose their salvation after sinning then you will also have to admit that it also says that one will never ever be able to get it back again. Meaning, believers can not sin AT ALL NEVER EVER because to do so would mean INSTANT LOSS OF SALVATION. And forget about repenting from those sins because IT IS TOO LATE FOR YOU to do so!!! THERE IS NO HOPE FOR YOU!!! Oh well! Should have thought of that when you were sinning! I have to admit, if that's true, I lost my salvation a LONG time ago, and I am now an unsaved believer bound for hell. Where is the joy and Good News for believers in that?! There IS none. Joseph Chambers was right, it IS the devil's joke. Unfortunely, the joke's on us!  |
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Post by PrisonerOfHope on Nov 29, 2012 14:20:05 GMT -5
I was listening to Dr. Randy White on Worldview Weekend Radio earlier today. He's one of the few pastors who sticks to the Word; in fact, he was saying that a lot of people visit his church and don't come back, because he's so theological and doctrinally focused! (No tickling ears in his church!)
Anyway, he said something that I thought was very profound:
"God extends His grace to those who repent."
It really answers the entire question of "greasy grace" - yes, God does extend His grace to sinners, but they have to repent of their sin, not continue on with the idea of, "Well, I'll just keep sinning, and God's grace will excuse me."
Now, we have to be realistic - it's one thing to say "I don't WANT to sin anymore" (and sincerely mean it), but we're fooling ourselves if we repent and promise God we'll never sin again - as much as we may intend that, we're still living in the flesh, and we'll continue to sin whether we want to or not.
I think the difference is between having a sincere desire to want to turn away from sin (I can't wait to have this sin nature removed from me!), and continuing on with the idea of, "Oh well, I'm a sinner....might as well throw a few more on the pile."
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Post by wateredseeds on Nov 29, 2012 15:26:36 GMT -5
metanoia(repent)-CHANGE OF MIND
It is NOT a wholesale turning away from. It is a change of mind. It means you REALIZE that you are a sinner...and that there is a price for that.
Lordship salvation is absolutely false. Even if someone decides to keep on in sin.....if they trule trust in Jesus...nothing can take that away. The question is, will they be found naked on that day? Yes. They will be saved...but literally as one escaping from the fire(1 corinthians 3:15).
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Post by wateredseeds on Nov 29, 2012 15:27:52 GMT -5
Grace-unmerited gift of God.
If it is required that someone turn away from their sin and not sin anymore.....then that is not grace, because it is something earned. Grace is grace because you CANNOT earn it.
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Post by PrisonerOfHope on Nov 29, 2012 16:59:29 GMT -5
No, wateredseeds - there is NO forgiveness without repentance.
Your line of reasoning is along the lines of universalism - everyone goes to heaven, and it's a false doctrine.
And grace isn't free - God gave His Only Begotten Son to pay for our sins.
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Post by wateredseeds on Nov 29, 2012 17:18:28 GMT -5
POH,
I reject your lordship salvation viewpoint. My viewpoint is not universalist. It is based upon the FACT that all that is required in order to be saved is the realization that you are a sinner separated from God.....and an acceptance of the sacrifice that Jesus Christ made when he took the penalty of your sin on himself.
Once again, the WORD REPENT...is the greek word METANOIA. It means to CHANGE YOUR MIND. It does not mean to STOP SINNING....TURN AWAY FROM SIN(which is the same as stopping sinning)...it means to change your mind.
BTW: I didn't say grace was free. I said that God paid the price for it...not us. That means it is unmerited by the BELIEVER....but by God's grace He has allowed us to be saved because of His sacrifice.
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Post by wateredseeds on Nov 29, 2012 17:20:53 GMT -5
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast."-Ephesians 2:8-9
Not sinning is a work. How can you be saved by your works? You cannot. How can it contribute to your salvation? It cannot. You are saved by grace through FAITH...this is NOT OF YOURSELVES.
Stop adding to the gospel.
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Post by PrisonerOfHope on Nov 29, 2012 17:53:47 GMT -5
WS - You seem to be rather confused on a number of issues, including this one. I don't know what teachers you're listening to, or what books you're reading, but you can find a lot of good, sound, totally Biblical teaching at worldviewweekend.com. The following article explains the need for repentance, and explains the difference between faith and works: Is repentance necessary for salvation?by Matt Slick The answer to the question "Is repentance necessary for salvation?" is both yes and no. It depends on what is meant by the question. If by asking "Is repentance necessary for salvation?" the person means that the sinner must first repent, have a change of mind, and stop sinning in order to get saved, then the answer would be no. The reason would be because we are not saved from the righteous judgment of God by stopping sin and doing good -- that would be salvation by works. We are saved from our sins by trusting in Christ, who bore our sins in his body on the cross (1 Pet 2:24), not by ceasing sin and doing what is right. When we receive Christ (John 1:12) we are then justified by faith (Rom. 3:28; 4:5; 5:1), and it is the work of God to regenerate us which then enables us to turn from our sins. Therefore, repentance is the result of regeneration (salvation), not the cause of it. “Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 “And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances,” (Ezekiel 36:26-27). John 1:12-13, “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” “The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit,” (John 3:8). “Every good thing bestowed and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation, or shifting shadow. 18 In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures,” (James 1:17-18). On the other hand, repentance is necessary for salvation in the sense that we cannot be saved from God's righteous judgment without changing our minds about sin, without turning from it and seeking to honor God.
Luke 13:3, "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish." Acts 2:38, "And Peter said to them, “Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. " Acts 17:30, "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all everywhere should repent." Repentance is most definitely part of the gospel message, but we have to make sure that we do not make the mistake of saying that our salvation is because of our repentance. Again, we do not want to say that our salvation is a result of our stopping the doing of what is wrong and turning to do what is right. This would be salvation by works. This is a tricky issue among Christians as to whether or not the unbeliever who is a slave of sin (Romans 6:14-20), who cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14), and can do no good (Romans 3:10-12) is able to make a choice to stop sinning based on his sinful nature. It would seem that the ability to repent must be granted by God (Phil. 1:29; Acts 11:18; 2 Tim. 2:25). So we have to be careful when we ask if repentance is necessary for salvation. The real question is, "is repentance the result of salvation?" And the answer to that is yes. But repentance is also part of the message of salvation that commands people to repent, because turning from sin is what is right to do. Sin is against the nature of God and that is why God always commands everyone everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30). Just as he also commands that you will be holy (1 Peter 1:16), even though we cannot be holy. God is the standard of perfection, and that standard is not lessened because of our inability. Therefore, repentance is commanded, as is holiness, and we have to depend on God for both.carm.org/repentance-necessary-salvation |
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Post by wateredseeds on Nov 30, 2012 12:35:27 GMT -5
"When we receive Christ (John 1:12) we are then justified by faith (Rom. 3:28; 4:5; 5:1), and it is the work of God to regenerate us which then enables us to turn from our sins. Therefore, repentance is the result of regeneration (salvation), not the cause of it."
I agreed with everything right up until this part. That is backwards. Repent comes before faith. You cannot have faith unless you first repent. Repent is not a wholesale turning away from sin, it is a realization that you ARE a sinner....and that sin separates you from God...and that you NEED a SAVIOR.
It is obvious that you have a misunderstanding of what repent means. From the context of scripture we can see.
"Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,"-Matthew 27:3
"He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went."-Matthew 21:29
"And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel."-Mark 1:15
"Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes."-Luke 10:13
"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord."-Acts 3:19
"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."-Acts 2:38
Etc. etc. etc.
Repent is a changing of the mind. It is to be sorrowful over your sin. It is not to stop sinning. Stopping sinning comes with sanctification. Please note....that when the gospel was preached it was REPENT....that was first in the statement. You cannot accept the Savior of your sins without first changing your mind about the fact that you are a sinner. This is why Jesus used the law to convict people like the young rich man.
What you are saying is lordship salvation. It is what macarthur and piper preach. I reject that completely. It is to say that if someone doesn't stop sinning, or doesn't come into submission of God....then they were never really saved.
Except that the gospel completely contradicts that.
Read John 3. Enough said.
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Post by PrisonerOfHope on Nov 30, 2012 14:09:14 GMT -5
Wateredseeds, I'm really getting concerned about you - this is not the first time you've tried to promote unbiblical doctrine...and please don't tell me I don't know the meaning of repentance. "Repentance is the activity of reviewing one's actions and feeling contrition or regret for past wrongs. It generally involves a commitment to personal change and resolving to live a more responsible and humane life. In religious contexts it usually refers to confession to God, ceasing sin against God in order to gain forgiveness or absolution. It typically includes an admission of guilt, a promise or resolve not to repeat the offense; an attempt to make restitution for the wrong, or in some way to reverse the harmful effects of the wrong where possible." And no, I'm not preaching Lordship salvation; the very idea that repentance is "works" is too preposterous to even contemplate. Again, I suggest that you listen to biblically sound teachers, such as those on Worldview Weekend. You can start with this one, which covers some of the theological flaws in the church today in the last portion: worldviewweekend.com/worldview-radio/play.php?id=showsFlat-24552Bear in mind there are hundreds of people who read this site each day; some may not be saved, and are seeking the truth. It it NOT true that one can be saved and continue to willfully sin Romans 6:1), and I'm concerned that YOU are going to be held responsible for leading others astray. Yes, we sin after we're saved, because we're still in the flesh, but someone who is genuinely born again has an abhorrence of sin and genuinely regrets their failings. I've met "Christians" who continue on in sin - it astounds me how many are living with someone they're not married to, and flippantly say, "Oh, grace covers my sin!" Oh really? I'll say it again: Grace comes after repentance, otherwise you're looking at a world where everyone is forgiven and everyone is going to heaven - the heresy of universalism. Please read our Statement of Faith again, and refrain from posting unbiblical doctrine. I've posted articles by Biblically sound teachers, fundamentalist Christians who usually have doctorates in theology and know what they're talking about. I dare say that you don't know better than they do, yet you're arguing with what they write. This is your second warning. |
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Post by PrisonerOfHope on Dec 3, 2012 21:57:01 GMT -5
I sent Joe Chambers a link to this thread, and asked him what he thought. He responded by email:
"I think you are wasting time with that man. The new
cheap-grace crowd actually believe that repentance is
works and not needed for salvation. I moved on pass
those people. They do not hear the Bible so they sure
will not listen to little old me.
Blessings to you!!"
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Post by popcorn on Dec 4, 2012 0:02:08 GMT -5
Question: "What is repentance and is it necessary for salvation?"
Answer: [glow=red,2,300]Many understand the term repentance to mean “turning from sin.[/glow]” This is not the biblical definition of repentance. In the Bible, the word repent means “to change one’s mind.” The Bible also tells us that true repentance will result in a change of actions (Luke 3:8-14; Acts 3:19). Acts 26:20 declares, “I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.” The full biblical definition of repentance is a change of mind that results in a change of action.
What, then, is the connection between repentance and salvation? The Book of Acts seems to especially focus on repentance in regards to salvation (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 11:18; 17:30; 20:21; 26:20). To repent, in relation to salvation, is to change your mind in regard to Jesus Christ. In Peter’s sermon on the day of Pentecost (Acts chapter 2), he concludes with a call for the people to repent (Acts 2:38). Repent from what? Peter is calling the people who rejected Jesus (Acts 2:36) to change their minds about Him, to recognize that He is indeed “Lord and Christ” (Acts 2:36). Peter is calling the people to change their minds from rejection of Christ as the Messiah to faith in Him as both Messiah and Savior.
Repentance and faith can be understood as “two sides of the same coin.” It is impossible to place your faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior without first changing your mind about who He is and what He has done. Whether it is repentance from willful rejection or repentance from ignorance or disinterest, it is a change of mind. Biblical repentance, in relation to salvation, is changing your mind from rejection of Christ to faith in Christ.
It is crucially important that we understand repentance is not a work we do to earn salvation. No one can repent and come to God unless God pulls that person to Himself (John 6:44). Acts 5:31 and 11:18 indicate that repentance is something God gives—it is only possible because of His grace. No one can repent unless God grants repentance. All of salvation, including repentance and faith, is a result of God drawing us, opening our eyes, and changing our hearts. God's longsuffering leads us to repentance (2 Peter 3:9), as does His kindness (Romans 2:4).
While repentance is not a work that earns salvation, [glow=red,2,300]repentance unto salvation does result in works.[/glow] It is impossible to truly and fully change your mind without that causing a change in action. In the Bible, repentance results in a change in behavior. That is why John the Baptist called people to “produce fruit in keeping with repentance” (Matthew 3:8). A person who has truly repented from rejection of Christ to faith in Christ will give evidence of a changed life (2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 5:19-23; James 2:14-26). Repentance, properly defined, is necessary for salvation. Biblical repentance is changing your mind about Jesus Christ and turning to God in faith for salvation (Acts 3:19). Turning from sin is not the definition of repentance, but it is one of the results of genuine, faith-based repentance towards the Lord Jesus Christ.
And some cult teacher say repent of your sins and beleive like the catholics to be saved. I say repent from your unbelief. I dont think any body called it a work its a effect or change.
Blessing to you too.
Hbr 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
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Post by PrisonerOfHope on Dec 4, 2012 15:59:37 GMT -5
I'm not saying repentance is the same as being sorry for your sins (see the definition I cited earlier) - although anyone who is truly born again hates their sin nature and can't wait to be rid of it! Those who view repentance as "works" think Christians are to refrain from sinning, and are lost if they do sin. That's impossible to do while we're still in the flesh, but true biblical repentance produces a character change that results in a qualitative difference in the way we live. In other words, a person who has genuinely repented is not left unchanged - they have an abhorrence of sin and do their best to "bear fruit in keeping with repentance" (Matt. 3:8) Even Paul looked for proof of repentance in Acts 26:19-20 when he wrote, "...they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance." True repentance is one of the first indications of salvation. We've all heard or read stories about people who were born again, and were so changed that people who knew them couldn't believe it was the same person - sometimes even their countenance was so different that at times they weren't even recognized at first by old friends! Yet what we're seeing today - and what Brother Joe and others are talking about - are people who say a "magic prayer" and that's it: they continue on in their life of sin, figuring they have "fire insurance," and don't care about changing their ways or pleasing God. 2 Cor. 5:17 says, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things have passed away; behold all things become new." If someone claims to be born again but continues to fornicate, continues in an adulterous affair, continues to regularly get drunk or do drugs, continues to steal, etc. with no intention of or desire to change (because they think grace covers their willful sin)...well they're not a new creature and are only fooling themselves; if you put lipstick on a pig, it's still a pig! It's one thing to stumble, fall into the mud, then pick yourself up, clean the mud off, and move on along your journey, but what we often see today are people who choose to wallow in the mud with no desire to get out of it. They're in for a terrifying awakening. |
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Post by baydoll on Dec 5, 2012 8:42:18 GMT -5
I think the difference is between having a sincere desire to want to turn away from sin (I can't wait to have this sin nature removed from me!), and continuing on with the idea of, "Oh well, I'm a sinner....might as well throw a few more on the pile." I'm the first one (having true desire to turn from sins) as opposed to the second (I'm a sinner so I might as well keep on sinning anyway). I have never not once thought, 'well, since I am saved I can go ahead and sin all I want.' Not once have I ever thought that. Those who follow the second thought probably have never been Born Again by the Spirit anyway. Meaning they are spiritually dead and are only deluding themselves. |
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Post by popcorn on Dec 5, 2012 12:17:08 GMT -5
I think Pastor Mike was Preaching for eternal security, but be weary. The biggest thing he said is only GOD justifies or condems. We should edify and encourage one another to know GOD promiises are true. Our blessed Hope. Can repent and repentance be twisted, one only needs to look to the catholics doctrine of Mass Repentance to say Yes. Run the race in fear and trembling, because of how great the gift of salvation is. I would say that salvation should be looked at as our rock in Jesus Christ, in which he sanctifies us. Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God now stay out of that mud hole. ;D  |
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Post by baydoll on Dec 5, 2012 12:26:03 GMT -5
lol! Yup! It IS getting a bit muddy in here, isn't it.  |
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Post by baydoll on Dec 5, 2012 12:40:04 GMT -5
Oh good golly miss molly there is so much confusion on this thread!!!!!!  POH your quote from Matt Slick pretty much agreed with what wateredseed said. First here is Mr. Slicks definition: That's what wateredseed said. Here: and here: and here: and lastly here: |
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Post by baydoll on Dec 5, 2012 12:45:02 GMT -5
The biggest thing he said is only GOD justifies or condems. We should edify and encourage one another to know GOD promiises are true. Our blessed Hope. Can repent and repentance be twisted, one only needs to look to the catholics doctrine of Mass Repentance to say Yes. Run the race in fear and trembling, because of how great the gift of salvation is. I would say that salvation should be looked at as our rock in Jesus Christ, in which he sanctifies us. Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God Amen.  |
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Post by PrisonerOfHope on Dec 5, 2012 15:23:32 GMT -5
But the fact remains, repentance is NOT works! That's what wateredseeds believes. We've seen someone else on this board who thought it was OK to go ahead and do something that was contrary to God's word, and her excuse was "it's OK - grace covers it." That is WRONG! Yes, the subject can be confusing at times, but if one is genuinely born again they'll bear fruit in keeping with repentance. You can't be born again and blithely continue on in your sinning with the idea that "grace will cover it." There are too many people these days who think they can just "say the magic prayer" and that's it - they don't change in any way, continue on in their old lives, yet think they're heaven bound when they're not. |
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Post by PrisonerOfHope on Dec 27, 2012 15:40:37 GMT -5
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If what you say is true then that statement is wrong and Jesus just lied to us. It should instead read as thus: "I give them eternal life, but some of them will perish because they decided one day they wanted to jump out of my Hand." 
